Like many other students from Africa, John Patrick Ojwando chose to come to India, to Mysore, for higher education as it was cheaper here than in Europe or the US. Ojwando is from Kenya, which has a large Indian population, and so he thought India wouldn’t seem too foreign. But it was only when he arrived here that he realised just how much of an outsider Indians could make him feel, and that Indians in India were in fact plainly racist.
That persistent gaze on the street that Ojwando faced, people assured him, came from curiosity. After all, many he met didn’t even know where Kenya was. The name-calling followed: strangers and even people known to him would call him a monkey. “When even English-speaking people behave like this, I don’t see how you could say it comes from any kind of curiosity,” Ojwando says. He learned soon enough to call ‘curiosity’ by its proper name: there were landlords who wouldn’t rent out rooms to Africans and there were parents who wouldn’t approve of their daughters going out with Black men. “It surely is racism when people refuse to sit next to you in a bus, when people you don’t know sneer at you, and when you’re pointed out to kids and called a ‘negro’.”
All of this, Ojwando admits, is subtler than the insulting, sometimes violent behaviour understood as racism in the West. “But Indians are caught in the middle, they look up to the Whites and look down on the Blacks. They clearly see themselves as being in between.”
Ojwando did make efforts to bring the large numbers of Africans in India’s metros together to speak out against the treatment they receive, but he met with little success. “A friend wouldn’t go to college because of how he was treated he just studied at home and turned up for the exams. Most Africans say they just want to complete their courses and go back home.”
Surf to Neo Sports any evening and watch the commercial with the Black man panting for water after a chilli-laden meal. No Indian lets him have any. “It’s tough being a West Indian in India,” says the baseline — not just West Indians, but all Africans in India would agree. There’s a debate on over whether the ads are racist, particularly because there is now a similar ad to further the spirit of competition; the Sri Lankans are the new target.
It is the unwritten dharma of being Indian: it’s not the shape of the nose or the proportions of the body, it is complexion that is the first marker of the Indian idea of beauty. And it’s not just Fair & Lovely cream or its male equivalent: the fairness obsession is everywhere. Most Tamils may be dark but their film heroines have, as a rule, to be fair. Bollywood has long romanticised fair skin: the words gora-gora have been part of the lyrics of countless Hindi movie songs. So when Bipasha Basu made a mark in Bollywood, her dusky appeal was a news story: for once a woman’s complexion didn’t stand in the way of her becoming a sex symbol. But Basu hasn’t brought on the skin-tone revolution: India’s matrimonial pages still have the word ‘fair’ all over them, and the candidates advertised as ‘wheatish’ may in reality be darker than wheat.
But racism is not just about skin colour, a lot of other physiological stereotypes come into play. For students from the Northeast, the ‘chinky’ taunt is a daily ordeal. A Sikkimese student at Delhi University, who does not want to be named, says that one day when he had had enough, he hit out and beat up an offender for it. Ladakh is not in the Northeast, but Ladakhi student Mutasif Husain Khan faces the torment too. “Just looking a certain way automatically makes you a second class citizen,” he says. “Wherever you go, they never take you seriously.” Worse, girl students from the Northeast face sexual harassment from passersby, from fellow students, sometimes even from their landlords, as being from the Northeast singles them out as game.
The obsession with fairness even found a mention in a sermon of the yoga guru Baba Ramdev: “Drink milk and you will be white as milk,” he once said. “Drink Coca-Cola and you will be that colour.” Valuing fairness of skin is part of Hindu ideas of ritual purity; after all, the word ‘varna’ — which comprises the four orders of humanity supposed to have been ordained by the Creator — literally means colour. Jati, or caste, is a concept within the varna system — justification enough for the caste system to be considered racism. At the United Nations’ World Conference Against Racism in 2001, Europe apologised for slavery but the Indian government fought tooth and nail to prevent caste from being included as racism, even as dalit activists put forward a strong petition that it be so termed.
Sociologist TK Oomen rubbishes the notion that upper castes are fair and lower castes and dalits dark. “As a generalisation, it has too many exceptions,” he says. “There is absolutely no evidence to support this. Besides, would fair skin be a guarantee that a Muslim in India would not be discriminated against?”
The connotation of fair as superior is reinforced by the contentious Aryan invasion theory, which is also cause for a North-South divide. The mistrust between north Indians and those who hail from the states south of the Vindhyas is based on skin colour, merely articulated in linguistic parochialism.
Fairness is relative, and so is racism. Actor Shilpa Shetty is quite light-skinned, and it is curious that the British TV star Jade Goody, whose grandfather is said to be of Caribbean origin, should have questioned Shetty’s hygiene during the recently contentious Celebrity Big Brother. Whether the comments were orchestrated drama or a comparison with crude British working-class culture, they provided multicultural Britain with the sort of opportunity to see itself in the mirror that no reality TV show in India has done so far.
[First published in Tehelka.]
126 Comments
February 15, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Link Suugestion for Black History Month My Review of Deepa Mehta’s “Water”, now nominated for the Oscars. [IMG] Also Recommended… Two blog-posts about inequlity and racism in India: Servants of India, and Indian Racism Against Blacks Comments (0)First Written: Thursday, February 15, 2007 Last Modified: 2/19/2007 1:56:45 PM My Notes on Kaveri Dispute
February 20, 2007 at 1:58 pm
If you want to bash Hinduism/caste system/whatever, do it based on solid understanding of the issue you’re writing about. But when you write absolute nonsense that stems from the dark depths of your abysmal ignorance, Valuing fairness of skin is part of Hindu ideas of ritual purity; after all, the word ‘varna’ — which comprises the four orders of humanity supposed to have been ordained by the Creator
March 1, 2007 at 10:02 am
What I want to bring out in this post is that one cannot go to another place and country and forget what happens in one’s own land :-) Read more on Racism in India: Racism in India: The arrogance of power Racism in North India by Aparna Pallavi The stain that just won’t wash
February 20, 2007 at 10:00 am
and have read some comments by Indian expats; who echoed the sentiments of racial slurs against her ( Talking about racism is absolutley unwarranted in this context, as we ourselves are these pious creatures with a covert sense of racism. Accounts of Africans that come to India to sudy will reveal this. Rather i think, we as a community is happy being the next best skin to whites and enjoy that status!) .If she was being mentally tortured in the T.V- Guantanamo, she could have walked out of the show/Game. She chose to be a part of
September 5, 2007 at 11:13 am
The stain that just won’t washhttp://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.htmlPublished by Shivam Vij 7 months ago in Newsy posts. .. .
February 3, 2007 at 8:01 pm
I agree with the article, its sheer bigotary on part of indians, who makes a big cry against racial discrimination and yet tend to discriminate against another race. Well, historically, didnt the same India kept demanding for freedom from british while denying freedom to million of other dalits in home?
February 3, 2007 at 11:11 pm
On a related note….
I was talking to my frinds about racism recently. One of them talked about a comment made by other common friends of others, “i won’t date a girl who is even a shade darker than me.” I reacted saying that it is a racist statement to make. All my frinds simply dismissed me saying that it is his personal choice and he is free to do what he wants, only when it matters to to others that a person is racist. Also, the idea of asking for a bride or groom for a sub sub caste isn’t racism according to them as it is a personal choice. I replied that it not the action but the thought that you have and the ideas that you have that make you a racist. They wouldn’t accept that argument. I am planning to write a post on what exactly i think racism is. I can’t beleive I have to explain why a statement like “i won’t date a girl who is even a shade darker than me” is a racist stament to make.
February 4, 2007 at 12:35 am
I had an African student comment on my post about the Neo Sports ad. While we can debate whether it is racist, the intent and the marketing sensibility, these visitors clearly feel it is racist -
http://shripriya.com/blog/2007/01/24/neo-sports-tasteless-ads/#comments
February 4, 2007 at 6:05 am
Great article!
When I was sixteen, I dated a Kenyan guy in India and the reaction was shocking. Even worse were the comments we got when we were together in public. Now I am in the States and it is the same, Indians look down on African-Americans in a surprisingly blatantly rude manner.
Thanks for writing on this issue :)
February 4, 2007 at 8:42 am
[...] Fellow Blogbhartian Shivam Vij has this amazing post where he dwells deep into the racist nature of Indian society All of this, Ojwando admits, is subtler than the insulting, sometimes violent behaviour understood as racism in the West. “But Indians are caught in the middle, they look up to the Whites and look down on the Blacks. They clearly see themselves as being in between.” [...]
February 4, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Nicely written and very insightful. I wonder what it must have felt like for the Punjabis and other Indians who the British took to Kenya in the 1800s to build the Uganda-Kenya railway. Perhaps they felt stigmatized or marginalized and stories that made their way back to India germinated a resentment of darker skinned neighbors. Sounds a little far-fetched. On the other hand, it sounds too simple to say that Indians look up to white-skinned and therefore down to black-skinned people.
February 4, 2007 at 12:40 pm
The human stain, indeed. Really good piece…
February 4, 2007 at 11:04 pm
I know this sentiment. I live in NJ and in one of the most “Indianized” parts of the state, and some of them do think of themselves better than others, especially black people.
A wonderfully well-written post.
February 5, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Very good article Shivam.
February 5, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Shivam,
This was an excellent article. You’re absolutely right that there is a lot of racism in India. And it is a topic that is simply accepted – most people do not question it. Just like the monsoon comes in the spring, “kala” is bad and “gora” is beautiful. And you are right about the irony in condemning the perpetrators of racism in the Big Brother fiasco while ignoring it at home. Stay well, Shivam.
By the way, I wrote this article on the topic in 2005 and got quite a response.
February 5, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Thanks all, especially Jai – you know your praise means a lot to me. But I’m surprised – I thought I was writing an indifferent piece just because I’d been asked to write on the subject!
February 6, 2007 at 1:30 am
[...] Racism in India My good friend Shivam wrote a great post on the topic. Check it out. [...]
February 6, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Hi Shivam,
Intended or not, commissioned or not, it certainly didn’t turn out indifferent. It’s an issue I constantly have had to deal with, not only because some of my closest friends are African (’my best friend is’…!), and it’s rampant in the everyday of India, but particularly in the work I do. Interestingly, when doing workshops on gender, my entry point is discrimination of all kinds, and in Kannada (as in other Indian languages), racism translates into ‘varna bhedabhava’, i.e. discrimination based on colour. And everyone in the workshop will tell me that it only exists in South Africa or in America. Viva our textbooks and ‘learnt’ knowledge. ‘Wheatish complexioned bride’ and Fair and Lovely/Handsome barely scratch the surface. Literally.
However, political correctness around racism can sometimes go too far; have a look at the debate over the cover of our book: http://blogs.sanmathi.org/anasuya/2006/07/09/vive-le-difference-le-debate-le-dissent/
You might be amused. :)
February 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm
[...] Posted by Jack Stephens on February 6th, 2007 Shivam Vij writes a post on racism in India. His blog is called National Highway and he also is a contributor to Blogbharti (a blog aggregator for Indian blogs): All of this, Ojwando admits, is subtler than the insulting, sometimes violent behaviour understood as racism in the West. “But Indians are caught in the middle, they look up to the Whites and look down on the Blacks. They clearly see themselves as being in between.” [...]
February 6, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Vikrum: Your post is much better than my article! How I wish I had gone to Shaadi.com and got that bit! Btw, why do you surf shaadi.com?
:)
February 7, 2007 at 3:12 am
Shivam,
Thanks for the compliment. When I first arrived in India, I was fascinated by arranged marriages. The whole idea of it is completely different from anything I was used to in the West, so I found it interesting.
February 7, 2007 at 3:49 am
Shivam,
While colour consciousness is an unpleasant fact of life in several countries ( at one time Brazil had an official classification of 27 complexions), I wonder whether there are any studies relating it to dicrimination in jobs and other opportunities. I am sure it plays a role in opportunities in films, though there are notable exceptions like Smita Patil and Savitri. But what about regular advertised jobs?
One area where India seems to be loosing out is education. Many countries seem to be trying to sustain their universities by recruiting foreign students and the way things are, students from Africa will be reluctant to syudy in India.
By the way, have you seen ‘Mississipi Masala’?
February 7, 2007 at 10:06 am
An excellent article Shivam, and so true.
I hate to make broad generalizations, but these traits remain with Indians even when they leave India (at least, this has been my experience with Indians in the States).
They might complain about racism and discrimination if you are brown, but most of them WILL NOT associate with African Americans.
February 7, 2007 at 6:54 pm
[...] 3. Shivam Vij on Indian style racism. [...]
February 7, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Do you have any evidence that skin color is a basis for discrimination in education or jobs?
February 7, 2007 at 9:47 pm
இந்தியாவில் இனவெறி
தெகல்ஹாவில் வெளியான ஷிவம் விஜ்-ஜின் The stain that just won’t wash கட்டுரையை உங்களுக்குப் பரிந்துரைக்கிறேன்…
February 7, 2007 at 10:00 pm
[...] Shivam has an article on racism in India. [...]
February 8, 2007 at 2:23 am
[...] an article on racism in India (shivamvij.com) [...]
February 8, 2007 at 3:34 am
I dont want to comment on treatment of immigrants in India, but I think taking issue with the Indian concept of skin colour contributing towards beauty, as being inherently racist, is stretching things too far.
For one, darker skinned people are not at a disadvantage when it comes to jobs, except in a small number of places where looking attractive is a part of the job ! Neither are they at a disadvantage when it comes to renting a house, no one cares what skin colour you are as long as you are Indian ! I am a fairly dark skinned person myself and I have never had any issues in renting a house in India. Ditto for educational opportunities.
In short, having a light coloured skin may help you in getting a hot date, but not much else !
There simply is no strength in any argument that conflates the indian idea of light skin as beautiful and racist behaviour towards people of African descent or people with mongloid features.
Sudeep
February 8, 2007 at 4:39 am
Great post. I agree with you completely. Indians can be racist too but we are still in denial and fail to see that this is indeed wrong and not just being politically-correct as someone mentioned.
As Sunil mentioned, Indians carry those traits to the US and even after they have interacted with a multitude of people of different races, they still retain that racial bent.
February 8, 2007 at 8:28 am
Very true, I spent 4 1/2 months in india during that time I was asked the whole “negro” questions.
*Sorry if it upsets anyone but I will use the nigger words to explain my view. I hope it doesnt upset any of you.
I moved to america when I was 9 in 1997 & when I went back I got asked if its true that black people steal your money robbing you at gun/knife point. I tried to explain to them that the word negro was wrong but I guess its just something theyve been brought up with so much cant be changed about it.
Out of all my cousins I would say only a few like 2-5 out of the nearly 30 actually understand how racist the word negro is. Its like here in america how non blacks shouldnt used the word nigger unless they want their whooped.
Fairness in india is rabid, me & my brother are somewhat dark where as my sis is very fair. My cousins also are the same the sister is fair but the brothers are dark. Im 4/5 in my family based on fairness of the skin with my brother being last.
I wish I was more even toned but I am glad I am brown since it makes me an actual indian. Instead of cailing to be superior than other based solely on my skin tone.
Though I have to say the fairness deal is more rabid in north india than it is in south india. Thats just my view, since ive met many indians(born & immigrated) here put me down cause I am south indian saying that I am dark when I am a bit more than medium.
February 8, 2007 at 8:41 am
Agree with you on most of the points. I do wonder whether the bias for a certain complexion is just due to the Aryan invasion theory, or whether there is a British strain to it.
And about the North-Soth divide, well there is no denying that there seems to be one, though I would like to believe it is disappearing slowly. I am from North of Vindhyas, and spent a couple of years in Tamil Nadu. They were truly 2 of the most fantastic years I had :-)
February 8, 2007 at 11:18 am
Shivam,
I have to strongly disagree on your statement about caste system being based on skin colour as it is called “varna”.
You should know that in samskritam a single word may mean a lot of things. Also, there was another system called “VARNASHRAMA” which gave guidelines about different stages (5 i suppose) of a persons life. Is that based on colour too??? the caste system was based on occupation which was clearly laid out. If at all it was based upon colour, caste names would have been similar like black, brown etc..
February 8, 2007 at 11:28 am
Well I guess same can be said when it comes to other Asians living in India. For example, folks from Nepal, China, etc…who are more so often referred to as “chinkies”. We barely ever give them opportunities above working in a Chinese restaurant or as security guards “Gorkhas”.
February 8, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Beautiful article. As for the Africans- I don’t really know, I do think that curiosity can explain some reactions but our reactions to NE Indians is absolutely appalling.
These people are Indians for crying out loud! And yet we treat them as complete strangers and as foreigners. But coming from Chennai (a city renowned for not being even remotely cosmopolitan) I don’t encounter too many such cases in my daily life.
But one thing is for sure- We want recognition from the whites and we look down on blacks.
February 8, 2007 at 6:34 pm
racism must be an inherent human tendency
February 8, 2007 at 9:08 pm
It is a very interesting article. Asian Indians in the US are probably the most racist, meanest and cheaptest in terms of being ready to ditch their country men FIRST for material gains.
February 10, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Just recd. this from my old friendPavamam:
http://www.komotv.com/home/video/5001856.html?video=YHI&t=ao
February 12, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Just adding a comment, courtesy Thennavan
http://chennai.metblogs.com/archives/2007/02/chennai_target_of_unfair_criti.phtml
//The best part of that was a comment that I saw yesterday briefly before it was removed for abuse and that person had labelled Chennaiva(a)sis as ugly people, obviously with a “fair” perspective.//
February 12, 2007 at 3:29 pm
[...] தெகல்ஹாவில் வெளியான ஷிவம் விஜ்-ஜின் The stain that just won’t wash கட்டுரையை உங்களுக்குப் பரிந்துரைக்கிறேன். ஒரு முக்கியமான காலகட்டத்தில் வெளியாகியிருக்கும் கட்டுரை இது. ஷிவம் ஆப்பிரிக்க மாணவர்கள் இந்தியாவில் எதிர்கொள்ளும் இனவெறியைக் குறித்து விரிவாக எழுதியிருக்கிறார். கறுப்பினத்தவர் தவிர தில்லியின் சீனர்களும், ஏன் இந்தியாவின் வடகிழக்கு மாநிலத்தவரும் தங்கள் உடலமைப்பினால் நேரடியாக அனுபவிக்கும் இனப்பாகுபாட்டைப் பற்றிச் சொல்கிறது இந்தக் கட்டுரை. நான் இந்தியாவிற்கு வெளியே வசிக்கத் தொடங்கி 12 வருடங்களுக்கு மேலாகிவிட்டது. இடைப்பட்ட இந்த நாட்களில் மூன்று முறை ஒருதடவைக்கு அதிகபட்சமாக மூன்று வாரங்களுக்கு மேல் இந்தியாவில் தங்கமுடிந்ததில்லை. எனவே இந்தியாவில் இப்பொழுது எந்த வீதத்தில் இந்தியரல்லாதவர் வசிக்கிறார்கள் (நிரந்தரமாக, தற்காலிக பணிகளில் மற்றும் மாணவர்களாக) என்று தெரியாது. நான் ஐஐஎஸ்ஸியில் படித்தபொழுது அதிகபட்சமாக மூன்று அல்லது நான்கு இந்தியரல்லாத மாணவர்கள் இருந்திருப்பார்கள் (இதிலும் ஜெர்மனியரும், இரானியர், அமெரிக்கரும்தான்). கறுப்பினத்தவர் அல்லது சீனர்களைக் கண்டதில்லை. ஆனால் பெங்களூரில் ராமையா பொறியியல் கல்லூரியில் நிறைய நைஜீரிய மாணவர்கள் இருந்தது தெரியும். அங்கும் நிறைய இரான், இராக் மாணவர்கள் உண்டு. பொருளாதாரத் தாராளமயமாக்கலுக்குப் பின் பல கல்விக்கூடங்களில் குறிப்பிடத்தக்க வெளிநாட்டு மாணவர்கள் இருப்பார்கள் என்று நம்புகிறேன். இந்த எண்ணிக்கை இப்பொழுது தொடர்ச்சியாக அதிகரித்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும். [...]
February 13, 2007 at 7:25 pm
[...] Mahabalipuram shore temple’s smallness takes me by surprise every time I go there. I don’t know why. Before I saw it first I had imagined it to be big, certainly not as big as Thanjavur Brihadishwara temple, but much bigger than what it turned out to be. I guess it takes more than a couple of visits to erase the impressions you form out of imagination. I heard Taj Mahal has a similar effect every time you see it, except that the feeling is that of wonder. May be it has also got to do with the setting… the sky and the sea make it look smaller. I was surprised – again – when i went there yesterday with a friend. Our plan was to catch the sunrise there. When we went there, it was 1030 or so. Thankfully, the day was cloudy – but we were soon to realise that a cloudy day need not be a blessing. Whatever, in the photo above, it looks smaller than the tree because the tree is closer. There is an interesting debate going on about racism in India. An example from Mahabalipuram. If you are not an Indian citizen you have to pay Rs 250, but if you are you just have to pay Rs 10 to get closer to shore temple. It’s not something unique to India – and may be, it has nothing to do with racism. It seems if you are a resident of Orlando, Disneyland gives you a discount. The logic is if you have come a long way, you wont mind paying more. That’s how businessmen price their products. Why expect anything different from tourism board? Still it did not seem alright to me or my friend. A East Asianish lion with a window in its heart. There was a group of tourists who, i think, came in a bus, and had strict instructions on when to be back. They went around the temple perfunctionarily and speaking loudly among each other. The old women in the previous post are also from that group. A view of the temple. Clouds were getting darker…. and foresightful people took their umbrellas out. And, we decided to cut short our trip, and leave. A workshop on the way – elephants and elephant-headed gods getting drenched in the rain. I don’t remember seeing so many of these last time. On our ride back we had to stop at many places. Not so much because of rains, but because of the speed of other vehicles. This one was near crocodile bank. And that’s my motorbike. My friends is out of frame. Rains aren’t that bad – my bike looks cleaner now. [...]
February 16, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Hey.. We haven’t met yet…. Plan a meet Man.. been long :)..
There has been a strings of hate mails flowing in a Yahoo groups of Manipuris, about how Racists “The other Indians are” and how difficult it is for “Chinkees” to live in Delhi and suchlike.. I pointed out that it was just a pyramid.. Pay it forward, mother in law syndrome…. And that there was rampant racism even in Manipur… Of course, nobody, responded.
February 17, 2007 at 6:20 am
Good job Shivam. Rang true because I just had a long argument with an Indian friend here in the US about racism vs caste. I can’t see any particularly significant difference, but this friend did and objected to professors at univ making the equation.
February 20, 2007 at 6:53 am
We in the West Indies where there are many indians of tamil origin keep wondering why all Bollywood actors are fair skinned, and we have a hard time explaining why to our black co-citizens.
Any idea ?
Write me
sharad@mediaserv.net
February 21, 2007 at 1:25 am
[...] Originally Posted by yashkul time to grow up and understand complexities of indian society before making assumptions resulting in simplistic conclusions.. india is more welcoming than most nations with a muslim president, sikh prime minister and a christian ruling political party head …true as u read "Many Asians are deeply guilty of skin racism; this is reflected in common attitudes towards black communities. I know of many cases where an Asian parent would rather their son or daughter marries a white person than a black person – the ultimate taboo – and one which is fundamentally to do with skin colour." Sarita Malik http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk…f_the_dark.html "However, other (less publicised) complaints were also made that it was unacceptable and insulting to all Sikhs to have a black man kissing a Sikh woman. http://www.cre.gov.uk/Default.aspx….001.Lang-EN.htm "He is a physician and an African American, she is an Indian, and they were facing the wrath of her parents because she was dating a black man. Another African American lady mentioned to me how her Indian husband introduces her to his friends and family as meet my wife K, she has an MBA from Harvard, as if a degree from Harvard would make her more acceptable and lighten the color of her skin." Kavita Chhibber http://www.intentblog.com/archives/…ns_are_the.html ‘It has been the Indian communities in my life who have consistently exhibited the lackadaisical racial prejudice against blacks normally assumed to be an exclusively white American code of behavior. My aunt felt the need to cross to the other side of the street if a black person were approaching because they just might snatch my purse. If I were visiting a friend my mother knew to be black, her first instinct was to ask if they lived in that terrifying, two car garage-free area known simply as downtown. My father more than once expressed reservations about hiring a black doctor in his hospital department simply because he might not fit in. I knew enough about my family and their friends to never mention the huge crush I had on a black guy in high school. I found their mentality to be completely absurd how could someone like my father, a man who had grown up around and lived with black people his entire childhood, a man who was himself denied a job at our local hospital due to a strict no non-white hiring policy so easily co-opt the passive prejudices and stereotypes of the white middle class upon his arrival in this country? I cannot fairly speak only of the American Midwest as an adequate portrayal in my condemnation of minority-to-minority racism. I grew up familiar with the common assertion that a black man in New York City cant get a cab; upon arriving in New York for college I was amazed to find that most of these negligent cabdrivers looked just like my father. Indian prejudice against blacks is not exclusive to one particular regional pocket of America , but rather appears to be entrenched within our ethnicity.’ "There is a cultural explanation: Indians have always been averse to black people out of pure aesthetic preferences for fair skin." Coonoor Behal http://www.queencityforum.com/podium/Atthemic032005.php "A few days ago, I had to renew my Indian visa and found myself standing in line in the appropriate Delhi ministry behind a Nigerian. When it came his turn to approach the incharge and make his application, the treatment he received was shocking. The lady officials demeanour changed from moderately friendly to downright hostile. Her face took on a contorted expression of someone whod smelt a whiff of something rancid. The Nigerian spoke English with a heavy accent and she told him to come back with a translator. An argument ensued which culminated in the incharge shouting at him to, Go back to your country! Afterwards, the Nigerian, who is studying at an Indian university, told me that he has faced virulent racism here. People often shout monkey at me in the street, he said. Im always being harassed by the police. Many times Ive been asked if I live up a tree Its hardly the first time Ive witnessed Indian racism. A few years ago a Punjabi friend who came to stay with me in Hackney was visibly shocked to find so many negroes living in my neighbourhood. He asked me in a loud voice in the middle of Broadway Market if they were all prostitutes. http://sacredcows.typepad.com/weblo…rquin_a_fe.html The Thing About Black Men "Mixed race couples are no longer an issue for most communities except ours. But is dating a Black man still the ultimate taboo? We asked four Asiana readers Sumitra, Meghna, Reeya and Cassandra to offer the views of the Asian girl on the street." Is going out with black men a taboo in the Asian community? Sumitra: Its a fact that when it comes to parents, however liberal they may be, theres still a lot of stigma attached to Black men. They may know that Black men arent all thieves or rapists, but they also know the wider community have exactly that impression of them S: I think theres a long way to go before such a union will become acceptable by the community. But it will happen. Unless you come from a very strict family, you wont get into too much trouble if you brought home a White lad. http://www.asianamag.com/Lifestyle/…utBlackMen.aspx Like many other students from Africa, John Patrick Ojwando chose to come to India, to Mysore, for higher education as it was cheaper here than in Europe or the US. Ojwando is from Kenya, which has a large Indian population, and so he thought India wouldnt seem too foreign. But it was only when he arrived here that he realised just how much of an outsider Indians could make him feel, and that Indians in India were in fact plainly racist. That persistent gaze on the street that Ojwando faced, people assured him, came from curiosity. After all, many he met didnt even know where Kenya was. The name-calling followed: strangers and even people known to him would call him a monkey. When even English-speaking people behave like this, I dont see how you could say it comes from any kind of curiosity, Ojwando says. He learned soon enough to call curiosity by its proper name: there were landlords who wouldnt rent out rooms to Africans and there were parents who wouldnt approve of their daughters going out with Black men. It surely is racism when people refuse to sit next to you in a bus, when people you dont know sneer at you, and when youre pointed out to kids and called a negro. All of this, Ojwando admits, is subtler than the insulting, sometimes violent behaviour understood as racism in the West. But Indians are caught in the middle, they look up to the Whites and look down on the Blacks. They clearly see themselves as being in between. Ojwando did make efforts to bring the large numbers of Africans in Indias metros together to speak out against the treatment they receive, but he met with little success. A friend wouldnt go to college because of how he was treated he just studied at home and turned up for the exams. Most Africans say they just want to complete their courses and go back home. Shivam Vij http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/th…-wont-wash.html "Basically there was a racial hierarchy. The first choice for marriage is someone in your own community, then after that, white is the next best thing. And after white, any other race in the world but black." In a small flat in east London, Rena, a 27-year-old Briton of Indian descent, recalls the stark marital guidance she received from her father when she was younger. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/s…1253926,00.html [...]
February 21, 2007 at 4:55 pm
[...] About 400 years ago Shakespeare told, “All’s well that ends well…Whate’er the course, the end is the renown.” Yes, Shilpa had it all good, She is the Indian Darling, who made some brown-skinned girls in Southall fell off the sofa. She will visit some trippy parties arranged by the deranged London Page 3 Circuit, if she was in India, she would have been invited to inaugurate some jewellery shops and may be some fans from Bihar would have arranged a feast for this commendable achievement. I have not seen Channel 4 to asses what she was doing in Big Brother, but i have seen Clips posted by writer aunties and have read some comments by Indian expats; who echoed the sentiments of racial slurs against her ( Talking about racism is absolutley unwarranted in this context, as we ourselves are these pious creatures with a covert sense of racism. Accounts of Africans that come to India to sudy will reveal this. Rather i think, we as a community is happy being the next best skin to whites and enjoy that status!) .If she was being mentally tortured in the T.V- Guantanamo, she could have walked out of the show/Game. She chose to be a part of this sick burgeoning Reality TV culture. She was so artificial and mirthless .This reminds me of a great line from a Simpsons episode when Bart and the gang are stranded in Tokyo and are attempting to win tickets home by becoming participants on the Happy Smile Super Challenge Family Wish Show. “American game shows reward intelligence,” they are told by show’s host, Wink. “In Japan, we punish ignorance.” Reality TV is a new vicious spectacle in the offering. This is the part of a trend- an unending one, to transform and appropriate human senses to single quotient in life-competition. In realty TV we fight our daily life in the pretext of reality,as mimicking. we have started to mimic our life and cash in that. It reduces the mighty spectacle of life to a mere money minting one; live a life on TV and earn money. The most destructive element of reality TV is the exact duplication of daily life and appropriating it to a competition. As of now, there are lots who have lost in this competition and more in the offering. They are called the poor; they are ones who are supposedly entitled to watch this spectacle performed by the transgendered celebrities; the viewership of the poor push in the much needed money for the transgendered celebrity who wins this. Shilpa has been shrewd in accepting an offer like this; for she is the only successful actor from India, venturing in to a reality show.(Rakhi Sawant does not have much success; she has this small town brashness and silliness of a girl mired in the shite of glamour world – She is a/made a whore!). Capitalism and its inherent fallacies; needs this kind of degradation to push forward its ulterior motives. Then main implication- Competition which spewed by these reality shows; just make the ordinary person feel, that he can also earn money by winning a reality show. But it is ludicrous for 1 billion people to think so, but to get them thinking in this way is a commendable achievement. Aint it? It is and that is the disaster in the offering. Like the human tendency of reducing a child to a mere miniature version of the adult, here we see a simplification of the spectacle called life, which essentially creates an illusion. Be it Big brother or Big boss, we have seen the putrefied section of the society – the famous and infamous celebrities, involving in ego centric fracas and supposedly falling in love over night ( Big boss – Aryan vaid and Anupama Verma). No one from the street of Bangalore will reach there, neither will they woo anyone over night. The possible seems to be the impossible. But this cliche involved with the disillusionment of the general crowd push these shows ahead. Reality TV is of different kinds, if Big Boss and Big Brother had celebrities (??) for whom the miracle of success and fame has been zilch, there was super singer, Indian Idol, Mom swap (An American show), The Fair and Lovely Cricket reality show, I Want a Famous Face,The Swan ( These shows showcase various technics by which the face of a person can be modified to become more attractive. Sounds disastrous??) and Adventure reality shows. Abhijeet Sawant, who won the Indian Idol show in Sony television looked like a puny villager with camouflaged make up, while attending an award ceremony. He was made to say thanks to the minuscule celebrities who made him Abhijeet Sawant. Neither he nor the crowd realises, he is just the same old Abhijeet Sawant after a couple of flop albums. Abhijeet Sawant was the middle class hero for the crowd and a pawn for the celebrity crowd that adorned the award ceremony. His presence on the screen evoked a feeling that it was so obvious for him to thank all of them ,because he was at their mercy to be there. Yes, some will relish those moments, But no one with self respect will. I am not condemning Abhijeet, he hailed from a middle class family who was eager to see their son in the lime light. There are millions of families who share the same feeling and this is the very nerve that has been twisted to cash in. What will be the effect of these shows? We dont have to ponder much, Saddam Hussein’s hanging video – the official and the unofficial,prompted around 100 children around the world mimicking this barbaric act and forcing themselves to death by mistake. In an era where TV is the quintessential entertainer of a family, these shows are bound to make a wider impact on the society. Children mimicking the adventurous acrobatics and the adults drooling for some fame, that supposedly could garner from these shows. Be it the quizzing or home arrest. Series of searches on Internet for worthy articles on Reality Tv only came up with accounts of distorted souls addicted to Reality TV. This forced me to refine my search a little more. Reality TV + Zizek in Google.. Slavo Sizek is such a wonderful Philosopher with novel Ideas and lucid language to comprehend him. This google search did offer some astonishing results. Enjoying Reality TV , a stunning piece which takes the usual perspectives to a twist and put in front of us a malicious spectacle in the name of reality TV. So it is our gaze, a dish to re-kindle our “thirst” for commodities- keeping it alive and kicking and a lot more of malice. Now,what comes without malice? Rarely anything! (Please let me pacify myself!!) [...]
February 22, 2007 at 7:29 pm
How about starting a quota for these poor poor dark skinned people? That seems to be the solution for all evils of society. As a matter of fact it will be perhaps more scientific than the OBC quota, you could use a lightmeter to determine degree of fairness quite accurately.
February 25, 2007 at 9:11 am
So which white woman is going to act in ammir kahns next movie.?
February 26, 2007 at 1:56 am
Indians have continued to accept the British culture that indoctrinated them with the idea that Africans are sub-human and so ok to use as slaves.
Modern Indians have never studied the true history of Africa. And hence forget that the builders of monumental cities and mausoleums in Egypt were dark Africans!
Someday Indians will get an honest education and will learn to see all humans as belonging to the same family – we are all the “third chimpanzee!”
March 2, 2007 at 7:00 am
I agree withthe article about skincolurs in India,
I amfrm Canada and1of myfriend is Gujarati , andwhen a teacher asked us where we are from we told her India.
andshe is like ” OH!so you can speakto eachother right?”
And my friend is like oh I am areal indian and she is not.
I was very offendethat just because I amSouth Indian I amnot considered as a “REAL INDIAN”.andtold to herface that.
THERE IS A LOT OF RACISM AGAINST S INDIANSFROM N INDIANS> even in awards all awards go to Hindi movie when tamil,telungu and Mlayalam gets S.Indian Awards. What the hell.
Ppl think that
ppl frm N.India who speak Hindi are the only and real indians
March 2, 2007 at 11:28 am
Yes. Right on.
March 6, 2007 at 7:14 am
HEY SHIVAM AND OTHERS
HERE IS A PERSONALL EXPERIENCE
WHEN I WAS IN kINDERGARDEN .
SOME KIDS WOULDN’T PLAY WITH ME BECAUSE I WAS DARK SKINNED.
i USED TO CRY A LOT AND I WAS VERY AFFECTED BY IT PSYCOLOGICALLY.
I HAD THIS THING THAT I WAS LOWER/UGLY/ STUPID THAN OTHERS WHO HAVE FAIR SKIN.
WHEN I WAS IN 3RD GRADE , MY NEIGHBOURS WOULDN’T PLAY WITH ME CUASE I HAVE DARK SKIN ,YET THEY WOULD PLAY WITH MY BROTHER WHO HAVE FAIR SKIN.
wHEN I WAS IN 4TH I WAS CALLED A NEGRO(SRY FOR THE OFFENDING WORD)
WHEN I WAS IN 5TH MY NEW NEIGHBOURS WONDERED WHETHER I WAS ADOPTED CAUSE I HAD DARK SKIN , MY MOM HAD FAIR SKIN, MY DAD HAD FAIR SKIN, MY BROTHER HAD FAIR SKIN
WHEN I WAS IN 6TH MY GRANDMA ASKED ME WHY I SPEND HALF AN HOUR TAKING A SHOWER ,HER EXACT WORDS WERE”DO YOU THINK YOU WILL GET FAIR BY STAYING IN THE SHOWER LONGER?”
wHEN I WAS IN 6TH AND 7TH I WAS KNOWN AS A TOMBOY CAUSE OF MY SHORTHAIR AND DARK SKIN.
BUT NOW(9TH) I AM CONSIDERED PRETTY -AND I STILL HAVE DARK SKIN.
HERE IS THE KICKER …
I WAS CONSIDERED UGLY BY INDIANS EVEN THOUGH I AM AN INDIAN.!!!
BUT I AM CONSIDERED PERETTY WITH A HEALTHY COMPLEXIONS BY CANADIANS !!!
UMM…WHAT THE HECK???
March 11, 2007 at 9:54 pm
So why was the indian actress making so much of noise in UK, when the same cant clean the same mess at their home country?
March 12, 2007 at 3:29 pm
[...] Update: See this. [...]
March 27, 2007 at 9:18 pm
“Indian government fought tooth and nail to prevent caste from being included as racism”
Caste = Racism is a wrong notion. Caste is just like race an idenity. A person being of the Caucasian race or another being Mongloid is an anthropological identity and in itself not racist.
The Varna system with Brahmin, Ksatriya, Vaisha, Shudra and untouchables is similar to European feudelism with Clergy, Knights, Traders and Serfs and was basic division of labour. Divison of labour and specialisation has been arround since civilization began. Plato, Xenophon, Adam Smith and Karl Marx wrote about its advantages. So the wise folks who came up with the idea of Varna system did not go about starting racism but set up foundations of a civilization.
March 29, 2007 at 1:10 am
Having paid great attention to the social divisions that exist in contemporary India. I would like to give some feedback to the world, concerning my experiences:
I am a black man of west indian origin who has visited India on many occasions. My experiences have been both pleasant and also anti-thetical. I have made friendship in the southern region with many natives. The history of India and also the origin of the Caste system,has led me to do extensive research on the topic.
The Dalit community is an oppressed community,which has been brutalized and inhumanely treated for approximately 4000 years. Unfortunately, this problem is still deeply immersed within the psyche of todays so-called higher caste memebers. Members of the Dalit community have discussed this social problem with myself,and also liken their problem with the African American community.
In the year 2000-I visited Southern India alongside my parents. In one Punjabi owned restuarant which we visited in Cochin, we were refused service because of our skin colour. I have noticed the air of superiority which exists amongst Northern Indians toward people of African origin and of course a darker hue.This is in existence wherever they have settled in Africa and the Caribbean (west Indies).
This is a problem which I believe is an effect, from the causal agent being a long historical battle and destruction of the indigenous people and their civilization. Remants of this destruction based on apartheid, still resides within the domain of the collective subconscious minds of the majority of so-called ” Upper Caste” members.
I hope that my experiences would give some form of enlightenment to the world; so that this social problem in modern India would be addressed and dealt with.
Peace
Isa Muhammmad
April 5, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Well I agree to most of the things mentioned in the article. Indians look down on Africans. Its totally baseless. I worked in New york for around an year. I use to stay as a paying guest with a Polish German women. Staying with her was so enlightening that I really treaure that experience.
Racism is more ignorance. You cannot judge a man based on the color of his skin.
Lastly I apologise all Africans who have faced racism from Indians. It going to be matter of decades before it changes … but I would try my best.
The proverb that goes in India …
“White skin can hide five faults you have and colored skin can bring five faults you don’t have.”
So being colored effectively means you will have to work 5 times harder than what you would have worked if you were a white.
All said and done .. sometimes its instinctive to be a racist … I face racism and I am racist in someways ( That is after I tried being a anti racist ) … I conclude that GOD is the biggest racist … may be.
April 9, 2007 at 10:40 pm
[...] again, Baba Ramdev says cola will make you dark, milk [...]
April 15, 2007 at 8:36 am
How many news readers with dark skin are there in India TV? None..even in southern India(including me) where people are generally of darker skin, you will only find a ‘fair’ lady..what a shame!
April 15, 2007 at 10:59 am
I’m an Indian American and found some of these comments interesting. As far as Indians being racist towards Africans/African Americans, this is hardly noteworthy. Posters who have their politically correct hats on are just ridiculous or incredibly nieve. In my experience MOST ethnicities share a common dislike for them. To add fuel to the fire, I have met many Africans who dislike African Americans across the board. In my opinion, this is based on how blacks are portrayed in the entertainment industry and how historically they have been exploited. The effects of slavery, colonialism, and the social conditioning that has resulted should not be taken lightly. These effects have a lasting impression on how a community progresses and how others view that community.
I also think it is silly to call someone racist because they prefer lighter complexions. To illustrate, I know white males who prefer to date pale white girls. I have never thought of them as racist towards other whites. They just have a preference. Whatever this obsession with “wheatish” complexions is, I would not call it racism (although in the past I also thought it was).
April 21, 2007 at 7:57 pm
You Indians are a stupid nation of beggars. You know that? Don’t you know that paleness of skin is relative? You might consider pale brown to be fair in India, but in Native European countries pale brown skin is considered dark.
And stop trying to sell that “FAIR AND LOVELY” trash in Sri Lanka. Who the hell wants paler skin in a sunny country like Sri Lanka? You’ll look out of place and get skin cancer. Just because you Indians have an obsession to be white – don’t try to spread it to us. The whites laugh at your stupidity. And unfortunately we Sri Lankans get stereotyped along with you Indian beggars as white wannabes because of your antics and skin obsessions
And I’ve lived in India, I think you all are even worse bigots than the whites. In Sri Lanka we only look at caste when we look for a marriage. In India casteism is prevalent everywhere. They reject people with Dravidian sounding names, and with low caste sounding names – I’ve heard many such stories from my Indian friends. And some Indian fools think that Brahmin cooks are cleaner than cooks from other castes. And why the hell are they so scared of us Sri Lankans? The ignorami in India think that we are descended from Ravana and his gang. So the f*** what? But atleast it prevents you beggars from being rude to us.
April 22, 2007 at 10:01 am
This isn’t an excuse for Indian racism, by any means, but have you all forgotten what happened in Uganda, and maybe some other African countries? Here’s an example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/7/newsid_2492000/2492333.stm
April 25, 2007 at 9:28 pm
It appears as if the majority of the world’s population are suffering from a “DENIAL OF TRUTH SYNDROME”, or maybe ignorance in other words.
During the period of European colonialism into Africa, systems of apartheid were deliberately set up to keep Blacks in an inferior position. This was done educationally, politically, economically etc.
The influx of Northern Indians into African society was done with deceit and perfect strategy, to keep the indigenous population in a position of inferiority.
Please reminisce over this influx of Northern Indians into southern and eastern Africa. What position did they occupy in society ? This was done with a militiary brilliance, to keep a certain people in a downtrodden position. The malevolence was so subtle that no Northern Indians questioned the system. Anybody who questioned the system in Africa,U.S.A and India were considered revolutionary threats to the system and destroyed.
Please watch or re-watch the matrix and truly comprehend the message behind the film !!!!
Peace
Isa Muhammad
April 27, 2007 at 8:15 am
Gere faces Indian arrest warrant
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6596163.stm
Poor guy , was just trying to clean up the racist row caused by big brother…
April 29, 2007 at 7:23 pm
The aryan invasion of India and the arrangement of the social order based on color is an incontestable fact. Even the sacred Veda scriptures go on and on about the violent campaigns of the invaders, under their god Indra,against the dark-skinned, flat-nosed “daysus”. The reason that most of the really dark people are situated in its Southen parts is because they were 1.systematically pushed there by the invading white-skinned Aryans and 2. because the invaders didn’t bring women so they repopulated alot of the northern-parts by killing the men and mixing with the indigenous women.
The society based on the division of labor (of which anybody could aspire to be anything in the four different areas) was restructured based on color. The brahmins were light and at the top of the color hierarchy and the sudras (like “sudan”- referring to black people) were at the bottom. Thus the environment was fixed to develop the superior/inferior mindsets and today you will find no self-hating, color-conscious people on earth as you will find in India.
They know they aren’t “white”, they generally prefer to be called “brown”, and would hate to be called “black” although if race was determined solely on skin-color, then they would unquestionably, undisputably qualify as being what is commonly referred to as “black”. Most people of African origin or descent aren’t even “black” in the literal sense. They are actually a shade of brown, just like the Indian is a shade of brown, but the difference between the “black” African and the Indian is that the “black” African makes no bones about being referred to as “black” because they know that the origin of the brown IS the black.
May 1, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Indians need to wake up and bring about a wholesale change in soceity
based on freedom of caste & religion.
There is widespread discrimination against muslims and lower caste hindus. Wake up fellow indians bring down the disgraceful leaders and make our des shine!
We are all educated yet our leaders pamper and spread religious bigotry and encourage racism against muslims and dalits. All over india discrimination against muslims is taking place in front of ur own eyes!
May 9, 2007 at 1:51 am
I think we need to take a lot more closer look at racism.
We Indians sure are the first to call names to people based on their color or origin – “Chinki” “Kallu” and even us “Desis”
But do we hate or dislike someone because of that? I don’t think so.
India is the only country where we really have all sorts of religion mixed and flourishing together. We get a holiday NOT just for Christmas OK!
We have had women and Dalit prime Minister, Presidents from adifferent religions and background.
We have come a long way in the last 60 years and the important thing is to continue in the positive direction
May 29, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Indians are what I call the most racist mulattos . Sorry to use that term, but thats the best way to explain them.
June 19, 2007 at 12:13 pm
[...] apply the skin tones to Rajnikanth producing white-rajni. Quite brilliant, but why?Some time ago I read a blog post on ‘Indian racism’ which narrated a story about a Kenyan taking a bus ride in India, where he kept getting pointed out [...]
June 24, 2007 at 2:24 pm
ever since i was a child in the caribbean…..ive always wondered why an Indian thinks that hes any much
different from a black. just because you have straight hair??? blacks come in the same various different shades that Indians do.
And i really dont understand why some indians want approval from whites. why worship an kiss the azz of someone
who does not look like you an who oppressed and raped your people? thats a form of self-hatred
but ironic an contradictory cause you hate yourself but yet look down on another race.
One time when i was in the states on vacation i went to Visit a Hindu Temple that is across the street from my neighborhood.
im not a full blown Practitioner. just been influenced by the Indian side of my family who practices.
I do a personal blend of Hindu/ Africa/ Caribbean Metaphysics.
anyways I went over to the temple to see if they by any chance sold any statues an to attend a “service” for Vishnu to see how it is done.
the looks that they gave me an the attitude of the Man in charge was ignorant and appaling….i guess just because im black
in we’re in the states the jack azzez assumed that im “african american” and that im not familiar with thier culture. only the women were nice to me
there was a White man there. he was nice too. but it seemed like they were kissing his azz.
Ive never let that get me down and Deter me from Hindu because the Gods an Goddesses of Hindu have always been there for me and guided me.
but thats a serious case of Hypocrisy. how can you be in a Holy place. practicing a Spiritual system an yet still be Racist?
I hope that guy reincarnates as a cock roach.
July 12, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Shut the hell up and die Shiva u muthafuckin moron
July 16, 2007 at 7:19 am
So what is your color princess ?
July 17, 2007 at 2:53 am
Another big example of this thread currently running, the “Indian Idol 3″ competition, a 3rd generation chinese indian is still branded “chinese” (no , not chinese nationality wise, but chinese racially, look at Annu Malik’s comment)
Here are some of the comments :
“Contestant from China”
http://indianidol.sify.com/videos/week3/
Once Annu said that music has not language, since he is a chinese ( he didnt really mean anything bad , I feel ) , what the hell, he , his father, his grandfather is born here. Is there no provision in the constitution that says that a person should not be identified by his race?
July 23, 2007 at 2:00 pm
hey it so true what you said and i have had the complete same treatment AS YOU.
August 12, 2007 at 12:42 am
This happened in my life during my schooling. Iam not racist During my school day i use to call all blacks Negros I never meant to hurt anyone i really dont have any dislike of any race.
We had a new tenant to our house They are african americans ladies. Once i was alone playing she called me to give me something to eat i took it and shared it with my friends and told them ” Our negro aunty gave me ”
The aunty called me and told me that she is not negro and she told me what it is and what is wrong Then i just didnt get it But later i understood what is wrong with me ….
I understand how good and gentle she was and how bad i was then and i call myself black
For all those who had that bad experience in India My apologise to you all and Lets all work together to eradicate racism for universe
August 12, 2007 at 12:50 am
I completely accept with Shiva But Shiva the problem really in India is we never had the opportunity to get to know you people.
I wonder what went wrong i always consider you people my brothers
Education is very important More we are educated more is the awareness.
I cannt change Indians but i tell you there are indians like me who are not racist we love you people …
August 21, 2007 at 8:06 pm
A similar experience from girl of indian origin in usa..
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004145.html
August 30, 2007 at 8:59 pm
the Indians always complain about racism when they are more racist themselves i have no respect for them
i n my country a we have a lot of Indians and they don’t intergrate with the culture ,act like they are still in India and complain when someone stands up to them
they look down on non-Indians especially blacks and our hospitals are packed with Indian moron doctors that can’t even speak the country’s language
all races are superior to the idiotic Indians
September 2, 2007 at 7:07 am
I would question the belief that the obsession with white skin colour is something that has always been there in India. The gods have always been depicted with dark skin. Lord Shiva, Lord Krishna, Lord Vishnu. Strange to worship dark skinnned gods and at the same time worry about fair skin. Also if you look at the paintings in places like Ajanta, you generally see Indians depeicted as they are – not in some idealised fair complexion. Very different to the way thing are now.
I agree that the chasing after white skin and racism are connected – should be an obvious point. I agree with the Lankan guys comment also – why do people use these fairness creams when all you will end up with is damaged ugly skin?
I also agree that this seems to be more prevalent in the North than in the South.
I would also add that the racism one finds in India can also affect white people. I once when on a trip with a mixed group of whites and Indians/Lankans and I have to say that the treatment that the latter group got was better often than the treatment of the whites – leaving us quite embarrasssed about the behaviuour of our fellow Indians. The reactions to Sonia Gandhi may touch on the point. Note that the US, UK and Canada have elected legislators of Indian origin.
Yes – India does have a problem and needs to wake up to it. Success in an increasingly interconnected world will depend on it.
BTW my cousin went out with an Afro-Caribbean guy and was accepted by the family without any fuss. I have a Punjabi friend who has a Ghanaian girlfriend.
September 13, 2007 at 4:54 am
Some people feel south India is less racist than north. I heard about an incident in Bangalore, where African students were called ‘kothigalu’(meaning monkeys) by kids. The more appalling fact was that the parents of these kids really enjoyed the ‘joke’.
Indians boast about being great hosts and of having the great culture. Probably these are only to promote tourism. Basically most Indians are an insensitive lot.
September 19, 2007 at 9:02 am
I am not surprised by this; it is happening to our people, I am deeply disturbed and ashamed of our culture of sarcastic way of passing comments on the minority, poor or helpless. Just one account of a North Eastern student at Delhi, they are teased by calling them “PAHADI” and even abusing them physical to the extent of having forced sex with local students, like this so many around the country happening. Even we enjoy these kinds of comments on silver screen, we never protest. Another account of BBC reporter who happened to be at the one of the Delhi fitness center; when ever the reporter comes to the fitness center the instructor ask the other Indians to give way for this white reporter to do his workout at Treadmill, even the reporte declines the offer, if the every treadmill is occupied, I think we are still slaves, and treating your own country men like inferior to the white. (This was aired on BBC few months ago) This is deeply rooted in to our culture, we quickly forgot our past under colonial rule what we had been through, this might be one side effect left by Brits. I still have some hope in our education system that will give us some knowledge of our country and different cultures. I still remember the national integrity ad on DD “Mile Sur Mera Thumhara”, I still got hop. Please teach your children tolerance to other cultures and how to be color blind and good behavior in the community.
Thanks for your effort to help understand what kind of treatment we are giving to people form ousid of our country at our home. I am not trying to smear this on every one, bcz of these bad incidents, the good people are also affected.
September 20, 2007 at 2:41 am
i comletely agree.. we r all jus a bunch of ignorant ppl… the need of the hour is to be sensitive to other people.. n change.. improve as a society…worst of all is when “super stars” like shah rukh khan endorse fair n lovely(which i think shud be banned)jus for some cash… how terrible.. to endorse such crap when so many ppl look up 2 u.. wt kind o a msg is he sending… idoit..
September 26, 2007 at 4:44 am
Unfortunately, things don’t appear to be changing. Recently in my home town in the U.K, a young black guy was stabbed to death by three northern Indian men. It was unprovoked attack.
He was enjoying his 21st birthday celebration with friends.
His half brother ( who is mentally retarded and disabled )was also at the function. These northern Indian beasts, started to mock this disabled chap. And of couse naturally his brother stood up in defence.
Racial hostility has arisen between the two. This is in preparation for the war of ARMAGEDDON !!!!
Read the article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=478023&in_page_id=1770
Peace
October 1, 2007 at 7:32 pm
[...] Calling an Indian with mongoloid features Chinese, and associating him with momos and chawkidari is not the same thing. I don’t expect a north indian to understand. Just dont cuss about Shilpa Shetty next time, and spare us all the hypocrisy 71 · 00rush on October 1, 2007 09:57 AM · Direct link Maybe I have been infected by ‘PC going mad’. But looking at some of the attitudes or comments that people come out with in India, its difficult not to cringe. I think saying that it happens all the time and its a part of life in India doesn’t quite justify the fact that a lot of these remarks are quite offensive. I have had friends visit India with me previously and some of the questions and comments that were thrown our way in all innocence were shocking.. and embarrassing. I can’t help but feel that Indians (both diaspora and back in the motherland) can be quite xenophobic. You could argue that people don’t know better, but that still doesn’t make it less offensive. Here is an excellent article on the issue: http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.html [...]
October 3, 2007 at 1:48 pm
We Indians may like fair skin, we may like white skin, and wheatish skin, and brown skin, but hey, we are open about this. We don’t pretend to be what we are not.
We never went out into Africa and capture millions of blacks to sell them as slaves. We didn’t invade neighbouring countries and destroy them. In fact wherever Indians went, Java, Sumatra, Bali, Angkor Vat, Cambodia, Lanka, we built prosperous cities.
Yeah, Indians did destroy one big city – Anuradhpura – and perhaps that is what riles this little idiot Sri Lankan. Well, who cares about that tinpot country, which has the only guerrilla force that has an airforce, Tamil Tiger Air Force, which bombed their main airport in Colombo. The situation was so bad that all flights to Lanka were diverted to Cochin and Madras for three days.
The Sri Lankan Air Force was bombed on the airfields by the Tamils. And the Sinhala pilots won’t dare take to the sky. Ha ha.
As for racism, let me tell you racism and casteism come into play mainly at the personal level. When i look for friends, i look for people who look like me. In my case, i look for people that are of any shade of brown. It’s a personal choice.
I live in New Zealand, I’ve been out with white friends, I’ve had white girlfriends, but I don’t have a need to be accepted. I don’t want tolerance because I don’t want to be integrated. I feel so comfortable in my brown skin.
As a news reporter, I can be the only brown person in a sea of blonde/blond heads. But I don’t think of myself as sticking out. If anything I’m wondering if I’m smartly dressed or good looking enough or whether I’ll get a date there!
That brings me back to the issue in India. The situation of Dalits in India is bad indeed. However, the Dalits themselves should take some blame. There are some Dalit garbage collectors who refuse to give up the job. In small towns in India, they criticise upper caste women who nowadays clean their own toilets with Harpic.
I have friends in Punjab and Haryana who say their mums have to pay these women from former toilet cleaning families to stay away. These women say: “You call yourself Brahmins and you clean your own toilet! And you call yourself upper caste!”
Caste is thousands of years old. But caste was never like this. There was a time when there was upward mobility in caste. The son of a labourer or cleaner could become a brahmin if he studied the Vedas and scriptures.
Only later did caste accrue from birth. Hopefully democracy and economics will change things. But for that the lower castes will have to stop doing menial tasks at once and be brave to resist the pressures from the upper castes.
I’m from the Thiyya community, which is the largest in Kerala (at least one-third of the population). We existed in Kerala before the brahmins and co-existed with other communities. We were the only community that provided warriors and soldiers in large numbers. But we were also vaidyars (physicians), farmers, agricultural labourers and hundreds of other things.
Then the brahmins arrived. They introduced the brahimnical caste system. For hundreds of years they tried to subjugate us, tried to make us subservient. They wanted our women in exchange for status in the social hierarchy.
While most castes buckled, we stood against them proudly. We never gave them our women, we didn’t bow our heads. The result? Thiyyas were declared avarnas, out of the caste system.
So what did we do? Clean toilets? Forget it. Thiyyas got their own priests, we studied Sanskrit, we built our own temples, our own muths (monasteries), our own caste hierarchy (impossible to escape that in Hindu India!)
Read about our guru Sree Narayana on Wikipedia and that’ll be a lesson on how to beat the caste system.
I’m not saying that the Thiyyas don’t believe in caste any more. But we managed to shake off the brahminical stranglehold. Similarly, the Jats up north have their own priests too. I have nothing against the Brahmins, they are a remarkably intellectual breed. Brahmins are in fact at the forefront of anti-caste movements.
Despite the billions of words written on Indian racism, let me tell you something, we’ve had dark Presidents like Sanjeeva Reddy, S. Radhakrishnan, APJ Abdul Kalam, and dark PMs such as PV Narasimha Rao, Morarji Desai and Lal Bahadur Shastri.
When it comes to merit, colour is no issue in India. My dad worked in a Punjabi-owned company in north India where I grew facing taunts they we were Madrasis. While mum and we children are fair, dad is very dark. But since he was brilliant, they gave him the top slot. Despite the owner’s family members wanting his job, he survived because they couldn’t find a better man.
My dad always got the best foreign trips, because the company wanted the best for itself. It was as simple as that.
Few Punjabis liked him. Most hated his guts, But for 40 years he was top gun in the company because merit mattered. He was a topper all through his life while his colleagues were what you call “approachees” and relatives of the owner.
So don’t blast India. Racism is very much a western thing that the Europeans and Australians and Americans specialise in.
Remember the “The Macaca Incident”. It was a gaffe by the then US Senator from Virginia, George Allen, referring to SR Sidharth, an Indian-American campaign volunteer for his opponent, as a ‘macaca’, a brown skinned monkey, sometime in the 2006 mid-term elections in the US. It was a racist slur, intended to put down Sidharth as a foreigner and a non-white amongst an overwhelmingly white audience of Allen’s supporters.
Sidharth was filming Allen from the back of the election rally when Allen made the comment, “Hey Macaca, welcome to America.”
The entire audience turned around to look at Sidharth and laughed. Can you imagine that happening in India?
Give India a break. We ain’t that bad!
October 4, 2007 at 3:33 am
Rakesh, you make some good points that ring true having regard to my own experience. I remember writing an essay in University about Sri Narayana Guru at University and agree that the model he puts forward for advancement has worked well – but the State can also play a role. On racism, if racism correlates with power, and I belive most academic writing on the subject suggests this, then, Indians (and Chinese) should not simply assume that racism is a western thing only. True enough that since the West has had the power for a long time, it is Westerners who have been the leading practioners of racism. However, if as we are now seeing the power centre shifts to Asia as may happen in a generation or two, then, the warning signs should not be ignored, and it may be that what we see in India (and also China) is the beginnings of something looking a little like what the West has traditionally been the leader in – and is evidenced by the real difficulties that Africans in India (and China) find.
October 6, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Amrit, I would like to be optimistic about the future and stick my head out and say that things will only improve – both worldwide and in India. But I fear that caste and racism are becoming stronger as more and more people travel and interact.
While caste wars are over and are now reduced to riots in a few states, at the social level it’s becoming more pronounced. Beyond the melting pots of Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Cochin, Chandigarh etc, elsewhere it seems to be just as strong.
Hopefully we won’t suffer the way Europeans did. In the late 19th century (when Europe was at its most ascendant), Nietzsche made a telling statement in his essay “God is Dead”. He said that in the 20th century, there will be wars of such frightening and savage intensity that the world has never witnessed.
Nietzsche made this comment more than 30-40 years before the World Wars happened! And he explained why these wars would break out. He said the loss of spiritual values would make people question God’s role in human affairs. With no belief in a cosmic order, it would be a free-for-all.
With western values trickling in, and prosperity levels climbing back to the days before the British destroyed our economy, what’s the guarantee that we won’t do as badly as the Europeans did in the 1900-1945 period?
October 9, 2007 at 3:47 am
Rakesh, points well made. I do not think that there is any necssary guarantee that Indians will do better than the West in adapting to power.
However, I might also stick my neck out and say that if there is such a thing as “Asian values”, pehaps one thing that Asians do seem to manage better is diversity and India is maybe the best case in point. One can only hope that in building up the country (and recovering from the damage suffered by two hundred years of colonialism) this is seen as the way forward. That is, there may be an alternative model for a modern state that departs from the Western model which most of the time has required the brutal suppression of lesser idenitities and their forced amalgamation into a uniform whole eg the Welsh, the Wends, the Catalans and the list is endless.
Some Western countries already seem to implicitly appect a different model, eg Canada, Australia and New Zealand, although they lag behind countries like India and Indonesia in this regard.
One can see what can happen where a Western model of the nation state is sought to be imposed in the case of Sri Lanka.
During the Nehru era, India used to put itself forward as exceptional in pursuing a better way than others. Maybe that kind of claim is something that a rising great power will always do – we have heard much about American exceptionalism in the heyday of the US. But maybe, if such a claim can be made by Indians today – despite the major problems that have been discussed in the blog, the pursuit of that different model could be the basis of such a claim -may be anyway.
Maybe also this view finds more takers outside India than within India. Sri Lankans these days look accross the straits and sigh when then see India and contemplate what could have been for them also. I remember reading something Margerat Thatcher once said when Mikhail Gorbachev asked her what she though he could do to hold together the many nationalisties of the former USSR. She is supposed to have said “Ask your friends the Indians. They do it better than anyone else”.
But I do agree that if India is to get there, it has a long road to travel – but at least it seems to have begun to do so.
October 9, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Jus wanna sey dat..this aticle is bsoluel correct..having lived in noth india south india and now in england i knw ow racist indians are…Being a south indian…from kerala..ma dad’s fair skinned..my mom’s fair skinned..ma sista is fair skinned..but i m nt…i m dark…n i hve always felt the sort of bad things jus coz of di color frm fellow indians in india n even frm ma family…they may hve meant to b funny..but it actualy hurted me always…Shilpa Shetty had no right at all to moan abt baing targettd in BB…she lived in a society where it is racist to all kinda ppl dat u can eva find..it follows the cast system…absolute racist views n crap! Being a patriotic indian i can tell you that i m proud of my country and if anyone eva got harrassed in my country coz of ur skin..i truly apologize..n unlyk sharon i didnt hve to b lonely coz of ma skin…i earnd them through sheer character of pace and cricketing skills…v hve gt a gang of indians in liverpool nw..n i m glad to sey i m the leader…color desnt matter for indians ere…LIE…it des matter..moving countries still indians hve the same view of fairness and darkness…Where u r humiliated by ur skin color..u hve to earn respect thro…power n skill…i learnt that…thts di only wey out for dark indians in any community…V UP IN LIVAPOOL LUV RAP MUSIC…LIVE GANGSTA LIFE…N HEAR NIGGA MUSIC…DATS OUR LIFE…DARK SKINNED FO LIFE…u can call me racist but der will b a day win every sport has a PELE n every country will looo up2 a person lyk Martin Luther!!
October 12, 2007 at 9:12 am
From an Australian newspaper. This is casuing a fair bit of anger here in Australia at the moment – and also a lot of shame for Indians living here. Australian fans are pretty bad themselves on this score but this is shock coming from Indians. This is just so disgusting!!
“Australia’s Andrew Symonds was racially abused by Indian fans during the home side’s innings in their one-day match at Vadodara today.
The only black member of the national side was taunted with monkey noises from the crowd as he fielded during the latter stages of India’s innings at the Reliance Ground.
A Cricket Australia official confirmed the racist taunts were directed at the all-rounder who was heavily booed on the occasions that he fielded near the boundary line today.
“The matter will be left in he hands of the local authorities,” a CA official confirmed.
The Australian cricket team was trying to respect Symonds’ wish not to make a big deal out of the incident.
However the Indian camp had condemned the behaviour of their fans.
“This should not happen but the problem is trying to control the crowds and in some areas there can be some trouble,” said team manager Lalchand Rajput.
“People come to watch the game and this sort of behaviour spoils the game.”
He said the Indian team would be very upset that a player had been racially abused.
“Yes, definitely these things are not good for the morale of the team, it is upsetting for them,” he said.
“They (the fans) should watch and not get into these sorts of trouble and behave in the right way.”
Australian Cricketers’ Association chief executive Paul Marsh expressed similar sentiments.
“If this incident has occurred I would be disappointed for Andrew,” he said.
The International Cricket Council has made cracking down on racial abuse from crowds a top priority with Australian fans having come in for criticism during the 2005/06 summer for racial abuse towards South African players.
An ICC spokesman said the body treated racial abuse very seriously.
“We have not received any complaints about this but in general terms we have a no tolerance policy to racism and a very strict anti-racism code,” a spokesman said from Dubai.
“Our anti-racism policy was approved and strengthened in November 2006 with all members having signed up to this, that racism will not be tolerated at any ground.”
The matter left a sour note on Australia’s comprehensive nine-wicket win over India that handed the side an unbeatable 3-1 series lead with two matches to play.
It is understood the matter was not a major talking point in the Australian dressing room following the change of innings.
The next contest will be in Nagpur on Sunday.
AAP”
October 16, 2007 at 11:42 pm
[...] googled "racism in india", didn’t really find much except this: http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the…wont-wash.html __________________ CW Colts Member Voted "Best Faux Name: Pakistani Cricketer [...]
October 19, 2007 at 7:48 pm
[...] search on ‘racism india’. This was one of the first things that came up. Read this blog post: http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the…wont-wash.html Yes, not a single racist person in India’s history. And I’m sure they were just calling him a [...]
November 15, 2007 at 6:54 pm
racism stems from accomplishments. The accomplishments of the white race are vast and without equal. The accomplishments of the middle races (Chinese and Indians) are just that- in the middle. There will be protestations-we discovered this and invented that blah blah blah.
But all this are minor to the accomplishments of the white race. In addition we need their hlep for everything, from technology top jobs to markets.
If left to our devices we would collapse.
Unfortunately the African race are right at the bottom with nary a positive contribution.
IF PEOPLE WANT RESPECT, EARN IT!!!!
November 25, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I think of the idea of indians acting as a superior race is simply loughable, I have been in india more than a decade and have seen what indians are made of, one is sheer stupidity and being really really uncultured or coming from a very inferior culture, look at how Nature made them, just look at their bodies and the way they walk it is simply loughable, we are told that they have the least amount of muscle and more fat, also we are told that they have a 5cm shorter dick than other races, so on what ground are this supposed to be superior, on the ground of sheer stupidity? they are just as they said a human stain.
November 25, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Wow menokki what a point, but just refere to what u call contributions by india (saree or perhaps the tiffin box), yes chinees have contributed a lot but before putting your self or your country first, please do learn what the africans have contributed (homosepian, pyramids lots more, dig it) just go through history I am sure you will laugh at the contribution u tried to imply as equal to chinees that of indian is a big joke, your comments say a lot about that contribution u spoke about.
December 9, 2007 at 11:20 am
For all of you who doubt India’s achievements in science and art, here’s news.
Ever heard of Indian scientists and mathematicians such as Lagadha, Baudhayana, Panini, Pingala, Aryabhata, Bhaskara, Madhava, Nilakantha, whose ideas have shaped the world?
Lagadha wrote the first astronomical text in 1300 BC.
Baudhayana (800 BC) gave the ‘Pythagoras theorem’ centuries before the Greek.
Panini (400 century BC) has been called the greatest genius who ever lived: his grammar of the Sanskrit language is exhaustive and yet it uses only 4,000 computer program-like rules.
Pingala (400 BC) invented the binary number system (counting by 0s and 1s) that 2,500 years later, turned out to be basic to computer operations.
Aryabhata (500 AD) took the earth to spin on its axis and he described the planet periods with reference to the sun. He calculated the circumference of the earth to be 40,000 km, and was off by just 500 km! He also took the solar system to be several hundred million miles across. In all of these things he was ahead of the rest of the world by more than a thousand years.
Bhaskara (12th century) was a brilliant mathematician.
The last two names belong to the amazing Kerala school of mathematics and astronomy.
Madhava (c 1340-1425) and Nilakantha (c 1444-1545), who made fundamental contributions to power series, calculus and astronomy, are amongst the greatest scientists who have ever lived. Their invention of calculus came two hundred years before Newton and Leibnitz.
Three British historians have recently suggested that Kerala mathematics may have provided key ideas for the scientific revolution in Europe. The need for clocks to keep accurate time on ships became of critical importance after the colonisation of America. There were significant financial rewards for new navigation techniques. These historians argue that information was sought from India due to the prestige of the eleventh century Arabic translations of Indian navigational methods. They suggest that Jesuit missionaries were the intermediaries in the diffusion of Kerala mathematical ideas into Europe.
The only rational explanation for leaving out mention of India’s great scientists from schoolbooks appears either to be bureaucratic sloth in the centralised textbook writing agency or the internalisation by Indians of the ideology of British colonialists who justified the Empire on the ground that India had a lot of religion but no science, thus being incapable of self-rule.
India’s contributions to science, technology and crafts are well documented, if not widely known. For example, before the British arrived, Indians had a system of inoculation against smallpox; year-old live smallpox matter was used, and it was very effective. Tikadars would fan out into the country before the smallpox season in the winter. The British doctor JZ Holwell wrote a book in 1767 describing the system and how it was safe. European medicine did not have any treatment against this disease at that time.
Inoculation against smallpox using cowpox was demonstrated by Edward Jenner in 1798 and it became a part of Western medicine by 1840. No sooner did that happen that the British in India banned the older method of vaccination, without making certain that sufficient number of inoculators in the new technique existed. Smallpox in India became a greater scourge than before.
(The above information is taken from an amazing website called kuttyjapan.com). I couldn’t find the author’s name on the site, but whoever, he/she/they are, hats off to you!
The bottomline: Don’t judge India by what it did or did not do in the past 200 years. The short British interregnum was a black phase – a dark age – because after the depredations of the Islamic conquests we had kind of lost direction.
However, the Islamic period wasn’t entirely devoid of progress. Though parts of India were ruled by a small Muslim minority, there were large swathes like of Rajasthan, MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra, south India etc where the Islamic influence barely penetrated the surface. There was indeed proselytizing by the mullahs and they treated Hindus very cruelly but there was always a limit. After all they had to live among Hindus and the only way out was by consensus.
However, the British has no such qualms – they came here solely for empire. They came here to loot and destroy. The reason they could not do it the way Cortez did to Montezuma – wiping out a thousand year old civilization in 24 hours! – was because India was far too strong. We still had strong kingdoms and a population that believed we were right, that we were inheritors of a substantial civilization, a body of knowledge that represented the truth.
Of course, unity was never a strong point at that point of time and it was almost easy for the British to divide and rule. They would ‘help’ one king defeat another ‘king’ and then gobble up both.
Let’s not forget one thing – don’t judge a culture by a few buildings or some such things. At the end of the day it’s the legacy you leave behind that matters. Did the pyramids that the Egyptians built help the original Egyptians? Hardly. Remember that the pyramid building Egyptians were a completely different nation and race. The current population is 95% Arab with a few traces of Negroid blood. There’s a tiny Christian minority – the Copts and these are the descendants of the people who built the pyramids and pickled their pharaohs. What are the Copts today?
Do the Greeks and the Persians, despite their huge ancient achievements, have any sizeable role in world affairs? Alexander stretched the Greek empire to India’s border, but what’s Greece doing now? And the Romans? They can’t even win the Serie A!
That’s where we come to India. I have read books that take India’s history to 80,000 BC but since our communist historians won’t be unseated from the university chairs for another 20 years, our universities won’t be allowed to examine such evidence.
Believe me, these texts left my head spinning. They may or may not be available in public libraries, and I read them thanks to my affiliations with a certain satsang that is making a major difference to mankind.
I’m digressing but let me give you an example of ancient India’s past. One of India’s greatest kings, Rama, has become a major cause of friction in modern India. He was controversial in his own time too (because in his quest for consensus he let his father, stepmother and his subjects dictate matters at the cost of his personal life).
India’s leftists who profess to hate Hinduism say he never existed. A Bengali chief minister by the name of Buddhadeb Bhattacharya says Rama never existed. OK, this communist can say what he wants because our democracy allows him to say that. It also allowed Hindu communists to openly side with China when it attacked India in 1962. I bet Chinese communists are slightly more patriotic, but that’s another story.
Now, until archaeologists conclusively prove Rama’s existence it, I won’t get into that area. But in the Ramayana, which was written at the time of Rama, the sage Valmiki makes a mention of the position of stars and planets in the sky the night that Rama was born.
Feed those bearings into a simple computer with astrological software, and you get the date – 5795 BC. Now is that some Hindu plot to subvert the on-going court case in India? Did some Rama worshipper get into some sort of time machine and scribble that into the Ramayana while Valmiki wasn’t looking? You be the judge.
OK, back to India’s achievements. In 1600 AD, the year the first Englishman landed on Indian soil, India’s GNP was 22% of the world economy (TIME magazine, August 2007). By the time the last of them were kicked out, that figure was down to 2.5%.
The British became masters of India at a very opportune time. First, they cut off India’s export markets. Soon the innovations of the dawning industrial revolution gave their products a cost advantage that became permanent in the absence of new investments to upgrade Indian factories.
As India became de-industrialised, it turned into a huge monopoly market for British products. There were 10,000 iron and steel furnaces operating in the eighteenth century India. Imagine! India was highly industrialized even then, and one of the hallmarks of an Indian village was that it was entirely self-sufficient.
Also, a huge amount of gold flowed into India because the world had an insatiable demand for Indian good. There are Romans records that talk about the senators complaining about the drain of wealth from Rome to India!
Come one guys, and girls, don’t feel bad about India. It is the only country that never invaded another country in the past 5000 years. And maybe more!
Oh speaking of war, do you remember the scythed chariot in Ben Hur that the Roman Messala uses against his opponents in the chariot race? Well, the scythed chariot was invented by Ajatashatru, the king of Magadha in 475 BC. And rockets were used for the first time in battle in southern India.
Speaking of Magadha, Chandragupta Maurya had a standing army of 600,000 infantry, 40,000 cavalry, 30,000 chariots, and 30,000 elephants. This is reported by Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador to the court of Chandragupta. I can’t think of any empire ever that had such a huge army. And come to think of it, this was a volunteer army, paid for and run by funds from a central treasury.
Also, the previous rulers of Magadha, the Nandas, had a much smaller army. But even that was impressive. It was sufficiently large enough to force rebellion in Alexander’s army, which was petrified at the thought of fighting the Nanda army.
And what about King Porus, the ruler of Pauravaa, who nearly killed Alexander in the Battle of the Hydaspes River in 326 BC.
The battle is often considered to be Alexander’s hardest fought battle, so hard that it caused his army to mutiny against him afterwards. The reason was there very heavy casualties on both sides, and even Greek historians consider it a Pyrrhic victory.
But the cold fact was that Porus was – by Indian standards of the day – an extremely minor king. His army was much smaller than Alexander’s, which had swollen to around 135,000 soldiers from conquered kingdoms like Persia. However, only 40,000 or so took part in the actual fighting with Porus, who had an army of 20,000 infantry, 2000 cavalry, 1000 chariots and 200 elephants.
To be sure, the Greeks were extremely fighting fit. It was a well-honed war machine that knew the art of fighting aggressive attacking battles. They had prepared for war (much like the US is today) for at least a decade and had perfected the art of war and siege.
The Indians’ cavalry was not used very innovatively mainly because cavalry wasn’t considered a very heroic arm of the army those days. The pride of place went to the chariots and the infantry. However, the chariots were already on the decline as was seen in the battle with the Persians in Gaugamela. The Indian charioteers used to blitzkrieg style attacks got stuck in the mud caused by the heavy rain.
The Indian infantry fought brilliantly and bravely but the Greek cavalry carried the day. Also, Alexander was brilliant as always.
But one thing that scared the hell out of the Greeks was the use by the Indians of the elephants. These war animals were like modern tanks. Heavily protected by armour on all sides they had spear wielding soldiers atop them who would pick out the Greek soldiers with surgical precision. As the elephants rushed into the Greek ranks, the hoplites just lost it. The famed Greek phalanx, which had been all but invincible up to that point, just ran because the alternative was either be trampled or get speared. They were chased by the Indian infantry that cut down the Greeks and almost won he battle when Alexander sent in the cavalry.
Porus had just 200 elephants. Today, a decent temple in south India would have that many! Further east, which was where Alexander wanted to go, there were waiting the Nandas, who had an elephant force of 5000. Imagine the carnage waiting the Greeks. No wonder they finally rebelled. Alexander’s life itself was under threat as he was dragging the Greeks to certain death. Aristotle writes that there was the very real danger that Alexander could have been assassinated by his own soldiers, so frightened they were of the prospect of facing larger better trained Indian armies. Not one would have returned home alive to enjoy the loot from Persepolis, which was substantial.
The Nandas had already got wind of Alexander’s plans. They were not a popular bunch but they were ruthless when it came to matters of statecraft and had already begun to marshal resources. If you think ancient Indians didn’t think far, just know that there was a strong Indian cavalry fighting alongside the Persians in Gaugamela.
Indians can be proud of the fact that the only fighting force of Darius in that famous battle that managed to break through the Greek defence and reach their camp and stores was the Persian and Indian cavalry.
The Persian and Indian cavalry units stationed in the centre with Darius broke through the Greek ranks but instead of taking the phalanx or his No.2, Parmenion, in the rear, they continued on towards the camp to loot. They also tried to rescue Queen Mother Sisygambis but she refused to go with them. On their way back, the Indians killed a large number of Greeks, but by then Darius had fled.
Also, unlike the Persians, the Hindus behaved differently. In a famous meeting with Porus – who had suffered many arrow wounds in the battle and had lost his sons, who all chose death in battle rather than surrender – Alexander asked him, “How would you like to be treated?” Porus replied, “As befits a king.” Alexander was so impressed by the brave and powerful response of King Porus that he released him back to his kingdom.
Alexander the Great had finally met people as great as he was.
Let me end this overly long entry with this para about the Hindu sages Alexander met in Taxila. Alexander, influenced as he was by the great Aristotle, always liked meeting holy men. Of course, in this case the holy men were brought before him because they had incited Indian kings and tribes to rebel.
They were the reason Alexander to fight pitched battles all along his journey down to the mouth of the Indus. So he appointed one of them as judge and said Alexander would ask each one a question and the judge would have to decide which was the worst answer. The sage giving the worst answer would be put to death.
The first sage, being asked which, in his opinion, were more numerous, the living or the dead, said that the living were, since the dead no longer existed.
The second, being asked whether the earth or the sea produced larger animals, said the earth did, since the sea was but a part of the earth.
The third, being asked what animal was the most cunning, said: “That which up to this time man has not discovered.”
The fourth, when asked why he had induced Sabbas to revolt, replied: “Because I wished him either to live nobly or to die nobly.”
The fifth, being asked which, in his opinion, was older, day or night, replied: “Day, by one day”; and he added, upon Alexander expressing amazement, that hard questions must have hard answers.
Passing on, then, to the sixth, Alexander asked how a man could be most loved; “If,” said the philosopher, “he is most powerful, and yet does not inspire fear.”
Of the three remaining, he who was asked how one might become a god instead of man, replied: “By doing something which a man cannot do”; the one who was asked which was the stronger, life or death, answered: “Life, since it supports so many ills.”
And the last, asked how long it were well for a man to live, answered: “Until he does not regard death as better than life.”
So, then, turning to the judge, Alexander bade him give his opinion. The judge declared that they had answered one worse than another. “Well, then,” said Alexander, “thou shalt die first for giving such a verdict.” “That cannot be, O King,” said the judge, “unless thou falsely said that thou would put to death first him who answered worst.”
It’s people such as the sages that make India unique – it’s the kind of greatness that won’t ever be eclipsed by anything. We’ll send a man to the moon in a few years. We’ll have the tallest buildings in the world soon? Our economy will be the world’s largest in 20 years. But can any nation ever produce men who can match the intellect of these wise men?
Greatness is the achievement of intellect – the knowledge and the acceptance that all men are the same. Is it any wonder that the world’s four greatest religions – Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism – originated in India? By greatness I mean none of these four religions preach simple conversion as the path to God. All four teach that the path to Godhead is through meditation. The achievements of India can be distilled into one simple thought – See The World With A Friendly Eye. What could be more civilised?
December 12, 2007 at 12:21 am
I am an African American here in the United States that owns a staffing company that does business with several companies and individuals in India and America
To me the racism is dramatic, Indians think lighter is better. I have very little respect for anyone that is a racist. Especially when they are darker than I am.
I have walked into several companies that employ my “Indian Employees” and I get racist looks from the Indians that are unknowningly being employed thru my company. The look on their face is dramatic when they find out they work for me.
There culture and religion is based on skin tone and the oppression of the darker races (Dalit). I don’t like the Hindi religion.
I am very educated and make well over 500,000 dollars a year.
December 14, 2007 at 5:56 pm
This Phoenix is an idiot if ever there was one. Observe that he says he’s highly educated. And in the previous sentence he says I don’t like the Hindi religion. Sorry mate, which uni did you go to? There’s no religion called Hindi, which is a language. Educated? Highly educated!! Or maybe he reckons it’s all right to get Asian things wrong as long as you get your French right.
He says he has no respect for people that are racist. Something new here? Oh no,just when we were about to respect those racists!
And then he says “especially when they are darker than me”. Implication: when a white person is racist, it doesn’t sting as hard. Please, anyone darker than Phoenix, be nice to him. He can take shit only from a white man. I mean he’s taken shit for 300 years from white people and don’t you brownns too pile on now! Don’t you dare!
And he gets racist looks every time he walks into companies where he places people. He must be a walking causerati! This is hilarious. Sorry, black people have an extremely negative image in the US, and when a black man walks into a white collar world, it does raise eyebrows. But brown people don’t batter them with batons like white cops do when they stray into white-majority localities.
As a reporter, I walk into offices where 100% of people are white and sometimes a dozen pairs of eyes are on me. I live in New Zealand and there are suburbs in Auckland where the overwhelming majority are white. Some have never spoken to a non-white person. Some of them have migrated to the northern suburbs from the southern ones as immigrants move into the southern suburbs. And these are the northern suburbs I go to each regularly.
While waiting in office receptions, if I started scanning each pair of eyes to see if they hate me, I would never get my work done.
The plain fact is that people who look different get stared at. Simple. Just as a white person would be stared at in the streets of India or Africa.
This Phoenix is a riot. Get a life, mate.
December 17, 2007 at 4:28 am
Phoenix is right, in fact he is being far to conservative in voicing his opinion.
@Rakesh Simha , you dont have to insult anyone personally, people sitting here know who is an idiot and who is not. Phoenix never pointed even a finger at you , so why do you spit vituperation against him ? Its very easy to write , what not, sitting behind the monitor…
And you know you cant tell this in the face of a black man..
December 29, 2007 at 11:19 pm
India is EXTREMELY racist and there are no government regulations put actively in place that puts a lid on it. I am not surprised that black people have experienced racism in India considering the Indian dislike for dark color. If there is any consolation, I would like to state that I too, a white person, was subject to constant racism in India with comments, slurs, refusal to sell tickets to me on trains or buses, Indian people refusing to allow me in their events for the “embarrassment” to have a “low” foreigner in their midst. I even found from a volunteer organisation that sells photos from some of their work and exhibitions that they have to cut out western people from the pictures because Indians refuse to buy them otherwise.
I am APPALLED that Indians abroad complain about racism whenever they don’t get their way through when in their own country, racism is immense and alive, and supported even by politicans and officials. Just read some of the racist comments Indian politicians have made about political leader Sonia Gandhi, simply for no other reason than being a foreigner in their country. Would this be permissible in the west, if an Indian was treated like this? Never!
I am against people like this coming to our countries, where we welcome them, give them jobs and income, provide visas and chances to expand their skills and chances in life when they clearly are very racist about the west at large, and all citizens of the west.
January 8, 2008 at 8:06 am
[...] http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.html [...]
January 8, 2008 at 12:35 pm
[...] Pinched from a Catallaxy comment by the always excellent Geoff Honnor, here is an interesting post on what it’s like to be an African living in India. The stain that just won’t wash [...]
January 9, 2008 at 8:47 am
[...] An Indian mate told me to my face that it wasn’t a racist comment; that the crowds in Mumbai were not racist. I urge anyone who might be persuaded by this argument to read this: http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.html [...]
January 10, 2008 at 10:37 am
[...] that is untrue. Read this for stories about Kenyan students being called a Monkey on the streets of India by passers by. [...]
January 12, 2008 at 5:32 am
[...] http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.html [Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.] [...]
January 27, 2008 at 6:52 am
[...] is reproduced here too:http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the-stain-that-just-wont-wash.htmlLets read it and move towards enlightenment.Asato ma sadgamaya.Tamaso ma jyotirgamaya.Mrityormam [...]
January 30, 2008 at 9:31 am
[...] See for example: The stain that just won’t wash by Shivam Vij. Like many other students from Africa, John Patrick Ojwando chose to come to India, [...]
January 31, 2008 at 12:32 am
[...] Originally Posted by Guru I believe that Monkey is a term that is branded on african-american people years back as white people thought they were less developed and more closely related to apes. So yes highly racist and deserved what he got. Loving the BCCI and their threats to do this and do that. Funny thing is that they will propably carry out them if the ICC don’t buckle to their pressure as they have the money Monkey is a racist term http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/02/the…wont-wash.html [...]
February 12, 2008 at 8:07 pm
[...] [...]
August 4, 2008 at 1:21 pm
It’s strange to know that here in the West, many Northern Indians are attempting to duplicate the Black Race. This is in the world of entertainment and especially Sport.
The African has dominated these areas here in the west, from Michael Jackson to Will Smith, Pele to Muhammad Ali etc..
The African Males body is also considered by many Northern Indian women as being appetizingly Beautiful, strong and indefeatable.
The African mind has also developed many great things, but denied here in the West. These are facts taught by some caucasians but denied in a conspiracy. Unfortunately many Northern Indians are not feared by the Western World because their minds appear to be incapable of stretching beyond what is taught in the field of education here !!!!!
August 6, 2008 at 8:47 am
1. There is no race called Indian
2. There are over thousand different ethnic groups in India
3. India is a union of several nations
4. The country is disunited, and has major internal conflicts they hide it from the world
5. Hinduism is garbage. Christianity and Islam and Sikhism and Buddhism the way forward for this country.
6. It will integrate into different nations soon.
7. India already has several enemies surrounding it. It is not in the best interests of India to make more enemies from the rest of the world. It will find itself in eternal battle with everyone
8.If African and other students suffer in India, then Indian girls and students will suffer in other nations. Tit for tat. Heh.
October 7, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Want proof that we Indians are racist. See the Hindi movie ‘Race’. This movie was shot entirely in South Africa, a country with 38.5 million blacks and 4.5 million whites. Yet what do you see in the movie only white people every where (except for one black dancer). If one sees the movie one would think that South africa is a lilly white European country.
October 17, 2008 at 2:44 am
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October 18, 2008 at 1:53 am
vll…i am an indian and id liek to give ma point of view here ….well ….1st of all we look down on black people ..just because its circulated all around that black people are in india only to trade in drugs …..(nd ive heard of a few cases)….now dis is one reason deyre lookd upon wid suspicion …nd yeah one moe ting as a teen nd a collegian id like to add …dat we galz find ..da so called negros vry hot ….:P …vll err ..back to da topic ..racism …yes da bitter truth id does exist ….but let me add dat in small chunckz …majority of people respect da foreigners ..be them of wtevr colour ……nd bout da dalits yes! i do agree ….wid dat da bramhimz will not stop lookin down on dem ….being a dark skinned gal ..,…evn i have always been targeted by da family since ma cousinz r fair …but i ave learnt to ignore them ….nd idz brainz dat mattr not da beauty …!!…..so….my point is dat i do agree dat racis exist ..nd wud go as far as to say dat i find india to be da biggest racist country in da wrld ….nd wud like to tell ….da students dat come frm odr countries dat …people here don spare thier own country men in mattrz of colour so dont expect sum shrewd people to act ne different to u …….nd yeah last but not da least der …r sum people like meh who …do NOT belive in being racists .
December 4, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hey Swami
You misinterpreted the stats. Indian dick perhaps somewhat smaller than world condom average-about 6 inches.
But East Asian dick smallest of all. about 3.7 inches (korean). sorry
January 17, 2009 at 4:03 am
This is a problem that Indians need to address. I have to admit, as a British Indian, there have been some times when close friends and family have been racist towards Africans and when I tell them, they simply dismiss it. It must stop!
January 23, 2009 at 2:18 pm
India is the worst racist country of the world( Even your family members discriminate the you if you are dark/Very dark)..you can see those racists who try to deny the truth by misleading and denying the fact…….I am an Indian and I say almost all Indians are UTTER RACIST and they believe racism is good and want to follow it forever ..So called higher caste Indians deny this fact but show me ONLY ONE LOW CASTE INDIAN who deny it….You upper caste Indians can lie to the World, but you can’t lie to me …because I am a DISCRIMINATED Indian based on my skin color.
January 25, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Chupp bey Kuttey
Muslim choooodu Chritian Lodu & Hindu is the Only future of this world.
Hindutan sey gand par laat maar kar bahar phenkey jaogey Gaddaron
January 30, 2009 at 12:25 am
Indians are the most racist of the lot in the world. they have no identity of their own and shamelessly ape the west in everything. I being a dark skinned lady have faced this discrimination every time. I hate indians especially north indians as they are very racist. I believe that indians are hypocrites of the first order. Indians must be penalised for their discrimination by other contries.
February 28, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Hi,your article is really interesting.I understand the fact on how Negroes face problems in India that are even worse than in Western countries.But that’s teh mindset of Indians.It’s surprising since India is a land of various ethnic cultures,one should expect the country to be more tolerant towards Africans,NE states people,religion,etc.Many Africans I know would prefer going back to the US rather than study in India.At the IPL Cheerleading squads,Afro skinned girls from western countries were asked to leave during selections.I had an ex who broke up with me since he didn’t like my skin colour.I’m dark & a South Indian.I like my looks & many people have asked me to try out for modelling.I live in Muscat,Oman by the way.But the moment I set foot in Indian soil,the discrimination starts.Even my grandmother can’t see me as beautiful.I guess people get diverted from anything that stands out in society.Like Sikkhim girls in Delhi,an African man in Chennai,etc.I remember my mum telling me that Krishna was blueish toned,he was condidered dark,but was still charming enough to sweep any girl of her feet.Somehow nature & God don’t fit into the discrimination India is known for doing.
Peace (V)
March 9, 2009 at 3:55 am
I hope the write knows that Indians pray Lord Krishna who was black in color…The author has shown only one side of things …and the authors understanding about varna and caste system is far from truth ..Sorry I donot agree with the article
May 21, 2009 at 3:45 am
Exactly, Sicilian. This is classic Indian hypocrisy at its worst. When whites do it to them, they scream “racism.” Yet when they do it to blacks or yellows, other Indians try to excuse or downplay that side of racism.
June 1, 2009 at 7:28 pm
I had a group of friends from Ethiopia, studying in Pune. I met them online and they invited me over to spend a weekend with them. They were one fun bunch and the Ethiopians’ home was a gathering point for a lot of students from East African countries. It came as a shock to me that their classmates very rarely interacted with them and I was their first real Indian they have interacted with up close.
The Muslim boys among them were luckier. They used to interact with Indians on Fridays in the mosque.
June 11, 2009 at 9:06 pm
your link’s broken.
June 11, 2009 at 9:09 pm
it is. and like other natural human predilections –like cannibalism, incest and violence – we must destroy it.
June 12, 2009 at 3:50 pm
[...] people remember how racists we are, now that we’re being attacked in Australia. They talk about foreigners being attacked in India and Indians being disliked in Africa, etc. Good, enlightening thoughts. But do they mean Indian [...]