Comments on: The Annihilation of Caste and the violence in Rajasthan http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/ Blogging from New Delhi Mon, 04 Jan 2010 10:12:06 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: ravi http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1900 ravi Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:34:06 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1900 "There’ll be troubles along the way, and not all may be well, but reservations are an inalienable part of India’s journey to a casteless society." your logic is amazing.Dr.Ambedkar is a great man.That does not mean that what he has written some 60 or 70 years ago is true now.Todays OBCs envy MBCs and MBCs envy SCs on account of reservation. OBCs demand reservation in promotions.Reservation on the basis of caste is a wrong solution. It helps in making the caste system stronger and gives it a legitimacy. “There’ll be troubles along the way, and not all may be well, but reservations are an inalienable part of India’s journey to a casteless society.”
your logic is amazing.Dr.Ambedkar is a great man.That does not mean that what he has written some 60 or 70 years ago is true now.Todays OBCs envy MBCs and MBCs envy SCs on account of reservation. OBCs demand reservation in promotions.Reservation on the basis of caste is a wrong solution. It helps in making the caste system stronger
and gives it a legitimacy.

]]> By: Amrit Hallan http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1901 Amrit Hallan Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:06:11 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1901 My wrong. We don't have the ICBM's. OK India and Pak have none. China HAS. But that's not the primary issue. What I have written is that arms act as a deterrence. If you read Indian history (<em>I'm sure you have</em>) you will recall that for thousands of years India was consistently attacked by foreign invaders. The reason is obvious. We didn't pay enough attention to our defense. If we want continuation of that sate, fine. We should disassemble our army, navy and air force and annihilate all arms and jut out our one cheek to our friendly neighbors. I agree that Godzilla is a myth, but so is the absence of big arms. The point is not if Russia and America didn't have those missiles, the point is, they have them, and now that they have them -- whether we like it or not -- they act as a balancing force. We don't live in a hypothetical world, we live in the real world. Hypothetically, many things could have happened, and should have happened, but they haven't. My wrong. We don’t have the ICBM’s. OK India and Pak have none. China HAS. But that’s not the primary issue. What I have written is that arms act as a deterrence. If you read Indian history (I’m sure you have) you will recall that for thousands of years India was consistently attacked by foreign invaders. The reason is obvious. We didn’t pay enough attention to our defense. If we want continuation of that sate, fine. We should disassemble our army, navy and air force and annihilate all arms and jut out our one cheek to our friendly neighbors.
I agree that Godzilla is a myth, but so is the absence of big arms. The point is not if Russia and America didn’t have those missiles, the point is, they have them, and now that they have them — whether we like it or not — they act as a balancing force. We don’t live in a hypothetical world, we live in the real world. Hypothetically, many things could have happened, and should have happened, but they haven’t.

]]> By: bvn http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1908 bvn Tue, 05 Jun 2007 17:29:30 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1908 @ Amrit Hallan, which is Pakistan's ICBM sir ? btw which is India's? - I don't know of any - do you? living outside the cave you do have a good understanding of our National security issues. World wide annihilation wouldn't have been a threat if nuclear missiles weren't there, thats the view from within the cave, how is it outside and FYI Godzilla is a myth. And if people like your joke prez is left anywhere near our schools showing off his Agni and Prithvi, you too will soon be living in caves - with me and everyone else. @ Amrit Hallan, which is Pakistan’s ICBM sir ? btw which is India’s? – I don’t know of any – do you? living outside the cave you do have a good understanding of our National security issues. World wide annihilation wouldn’t have been a threat if nuclear missiles weren’t there, thats the view from within the cave, how is it outside and FYI Godzilla is a myth. And if people like your joke prez is left anywhere near our schools showing off his Agni and Prithvi, you too will soon be living in caves – with me and everyone else.

]]> By: Amrit Hallan http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1909 Amrit Hallan Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:09:39 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1909 Bvn, please come out of your cave, or, grow up. It is because of the missile man that India has respectful missiles that can act as a deterrence. Missiles are bad, but sometimes they act as an anti-dote. If Pakistan and China know that India can retaliate, there is a less possibility that they'll shoot a nuke-carrying ICBM in our direction and incinerate us within seconds. Many instances of world-wide annihilation were averted because both Russia and America had nuclear missiles constantly aimed at each other. Today you can safely SMS and leave comments on blog posts because to a great extent we are secure. Besides, this missile man is a Muslim and that too, I think, a Dalit Muslim. He is a prime example of what strides India has made. Bvn, please come out of your cave, or, grow up. It is because of the missile man that India has respectful missiles that can act as a deterrence. Missiles are bad, but sometimes they act as an anti-dote. If Pakistan and China know that India can retaliate, there is a less possibility that they’ll shoot a nuke-carrying ICBM in our direction and incinerate us within seconds. Many instances of world-wide annihilation were averted because both Russia and America had nuclear missiles constantly aimed at each other. Today you can safely SMS and leave comments on blog posts because to a great extent we are secure. Besides, this missile man is a Muslim and that too, I think, a Dalit Muslim. He is a prime example of what strides India has made.

]]> By: bvn http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1907 bvn Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:52:01 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1907 shivam, you're right. india would rather that the middle class (thats a sweeping gener.) sit in their AC rooms while the people who 'live' sort things out, if with violence then with it. if this violence wasnt there would cnn-ibn, ndtv and all their other chelas write about Gujjars and meenas. I havent heard of them before. now we know they exist and they can burn down police stations and all. and what moral right does the broadband and SMS activists claim when they abhor violence in rajasthan and in the next second plead for a second term for that nuclear nerd, missile man whatever... when will the cities erupt...that will be live shivam,
you’re right. india would rather that the middle class (thats a sweeping gener.) sit in their AC rooms while the people who ‘live’ sort things out, if with violence then with it. if this violence wasnt there would cnn-ibn, ndtv and all their other chelas write about Gujjars and meenas. I havent heard of them before. now we know they exist and they can burn down police stations and all.

and what moral right does the broadband and SMS activists claim when they abhor violence in rajasthan and in the next second plead for a second term for that nuclear nerd, missile man whatever…

when will the cities erupt…that will be live

]]> By: Raghu http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1906 Raghu Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:49:45 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1906 I dont understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that since Hinduism/India is a divided society, you expect violence to break out every so often? Or are you saying that reservations do not have any role to play in this violence? I am not surprised about this bout of violence. People will be willing to take more Risks (number of people who die/get injured in violence or property/goodwill lost) when the rewards (reservation in a less competitive sector) are high. To me, this is another example of the divisive nature of reservations. Going by your post (and what Ambedkar said)... Indian society is inherently divisive. Are reservations helping the society become more inclusive? Not by what we have seen in the last 60 years. Gujjars (usually) still dont marry Rajputs or even Meenas for that matter. Would the situation change much even if the Gujjar or Meena is very educated? No. Doesnt that mean that reservations do not help bridge the social gaps between various castes in India? Instead of squabbling over reservations, or even worse - using reservations as a political appeasement tool, let us work towards uplifting all the underprivileged Indians (irrespective of sub-caste, caste, religion). I dont understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that since Hinduism/India is a divided society, you expect violence to break out every so often? Or are you saying that reservations do not have any role to play in this violence?

I am not surprised about this bout of violence. People will be willing to take more Risks (number of people who die/get injured in violence or property/goodwill lost) when the rewards (reservation in a less competitive sector) are high.
To me, this is another example of the divisive nature of reservations.

Going by your post (and what Ambedkar said)… Indian society is inherently divisive. Are reservations helping the society become more inclusive? Not by what we have seen in the last 60 years. Gujjars (usually) still dont marry Rajputs or even Meenas for that matter. Would the situation change much even if the Gujjar or Meena is very educated? No. Doesnt that mean that reservations do not help bridge the social gaps between various castes in India?

Instead of squabbling over reservations, or even worse – using reservations as a political appeasement tool, let us work towards uplifting all the underprivileged Indians (irrespective of sub-caste, caste, religion).

]]> By: Ritwik Agrawal http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1905 Ritwik Agrawal Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:23:57 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1905 Oh Mr. anti-censorship, pray approve my comment. Oh Mr. anti-censorship, pray approve my comment.

]]> By: Sicilian http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1904 Sicilian Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:08:07 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1904 Its a well known fact among the educated dalits, its time the other half reads it . Its a well known fact among the educated dalits, its time the other half reads it .

]]> By: Jai_Choorakkot http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1903 Jai_Choorakkot Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:57:57 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1903 Some of the sweeping generalizations in that Ambedkar address were quite surprising to me (first timer there) but thats a powerful and moving piece. Thanks Shivam for the link. regards, Jai Some of the sweeping generalizations in that Ambedkar address were quite surprising to me (first timer there) but thats a powerful and moving piece.

Thanks Shivam for the link.

regards,
Jai

]]> By: Amrit Hallan http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1902 Amrit Hallan Thu, 31 May 2007 21:30:37 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1902 Yes, there will be so much infighting that after a few years only confusion will be left, and no caste. By the way this is an ideal situation: having a country without the caste system. Talking about reforms: they have to begin at the grassroots level -- by abolishing the reservations and the quota system. Give people a unified law, give them justice, give them education, and above all, give them respect; there will be no caste wars because there will be no advantage in them. By giving them caste-based privileges they subdivide the already divided community. It's just like severing the arms because it is already diseased, instead of treating it. Even the blind have more sense of figuring out where to go, but our politicians and some intellectuals, intentionally or unintentionally (<em>I hope, unintentionally</em>) want to throw the country into an infinite loop of misery and hatred, by leading us to the wrong path. Yes, there will be so much infighting that after a few years only confusion will be left, and no caste. By the way this is an ideal situation: having a country without the caste system.

Talking about reforms: they have to begin at the grassroots level — by abolishing the reservations and the quota system. Give people a unified law, give them justice, give them education, and above all, give them respect; there will be no caste wars because there will be no advantage in them. By giving them caste-based privileges they subdivide the already divided community. It’s just like severing the arms because it is already diseased, instead of treating it.

Even the blind have more sense of figuring out where to go, but our politicians and some intellectuals, intentionally or unintentionally (I hope, unintentionally) want to throw the country into an infinite loop of misery and hatred, by leading us to the wrong path.

]]> By: The Gujjars' sweltering imagination at Blogbharti http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1899 The Gujjars' sweltering imagination at Blogbharti Thu, 31 May 2007 18:32:56 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1899 [...] Shubham is convinced the agitation of the Gujjars in Rajasthan spells the beginning of the end of discrimination: I always felt that reservations and caste divide will kill this nation, but now maybe every caste will resort to these measures and try to feature in the backward category list. Soon everyone will have reservations and that will be the end of it. [...] [...] Shubham is convinced the agitation of the Gujjars in Rajasthan spells the beginning of the end of discrimination: I always felt that reservations and caste divide will kill this nation, but now maybe every caste will resort to these measures and try to feature in the backward category list. Soon everyone will have reservations and that will be the end of it. [...]

]]> By: Ritwik http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1898 Ritwik Thu, 31 May 2007 12:23:32 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1898 Shivam, It's the oldest trick in the game - when logic fails, resort to quotations and rhetoric. Ambedkar essays apart, this is the logic that my middle class air-conditioned hypocritical mind comes up with. Reservations created for OBCs -> it is beneficial to be counted as an OBC -> Jats lobby and are granted OBC status -> since Jats are politically and economically powerful already, they corner maximum benefits ffrom the reservations -> there is resentment amongst the Gujjars -> Gujjars want to avail benefits that are not monopolised by Jats -> Gujjars demand move to ST status -> Meenas fear that Gujjars will corner teh benefits of St reservations -> meenas threaten that any move to make Gujjars ST will be met with backlash. Is there anything about that line of thought that you can counter factually or analytically? The annihilation of caste is not possible until your birth and identification with a certain caste stop becomeing the parameters of state policy. Reservations may not create new divisions. But they have surely not led to the erosion of any older existing diviiosn. And in this particular case, they have ended up magnifying divisions that always existed, and ensuring that people have incentives to identify with their caste and their caste alone if they want to accrue state-given benfits. Shivam,

It’s the oldest trick in the game – when logic fails, resort to quotations and rhetoric. Ambedkar essays apart, this is the logic that my middle class air-conditioned hypocritical mind comes up with.

Reservations created for OBCs -> it is beneficial to be counted as an OBC -> Jats lobby and are granted OBC status -> since Jats are politically and economically powerful already, they corner maximum benefits ffrom the reservations -> there is resentment amongst the Gujjars -> Gujjars want to avail benefits that are not monopolised by Jats -> Gujjars demand move to ST status -> Meenas fear that Gujjars will corner teh benefits of St reservations -> meenas threaten that any move to make Gujjars ST will be met with backlash.

Is there anything about that line of thought that you can counter factually or analytically? The annihilation of caste is not possible until your birth and identification with a certain caste stop becomeing the parameters of state policy.

Reservations may not create new divisions. But they have surely not led to the erosion of any older existing diviiosn. And in this particular case, they have ended up magnifying divisions that always existed, and ensuring that people have incentives to identify with their caste and their caste alone if they want to accrue state-given benfits.

]]> By: Ritwik Agrawal http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1897 Ritwik Agrawal Thu, 31 May 2007 07:12:48 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1897 "The present-day Kayasthas will not forgive the present-day Brahmins for the infamy cast upon their forefathers by the forefathers of the latter." Let us do a small activity. Let us forget for a moment that the author of these lines is the infallible Dr. Ambedkar. Then, let us modify the above as follows: "The present day Hindus will not forgive the present day Muslims for the infamy cast upon their forefathers by the forefathers of the latter [read: using hindu women as dasis, destroying places of worship, using Somnath stones for toilet steps etc]". Whew, that has become the EXACT justification given by the hindu-right wing for the destruction of the babri masjid and the pernicious campaign leading to it. That, my friend, is the problem with the politics of identity: it is inherently not logical, and anti-logic of one kind can easily be used to justify the anti-logic of another. “The present-day Kayasthas will not forgive the present-day Brahmins for the infamy cast upon their forefathers by the forefathers of the latter.”

Let us do a small activity. Let us forget for a moment that the author of these lines is the infallible Dr. Ambedkar. Then, let us modify the above as follows:

“The present day Hindus will not forgive the present day Muslims for the infamy cast upon their forefathers by the forefathers of the latter [read: using hindu women as dasis, destroying places of worship, using Somnath stones for toilet steps etc]“.

Whew, that has become the EXACT justification given by the hindu-right wing for the destruction of the babri masjid and the pernicious campaign leading to it. That, my friend, is the problem with the politics of identity: it is inherently not logical, and anti-logic of one kind can easily be used to justify the anti-logic of another.

]]> By: Caste, Reservations, and a Divided India « The Blog and the Bullet http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1896 Caste, Reservations, and a Divided India « The Blog and the Bullet Wed, 30 May 2007 21:44:01 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1896 [...] by Jack Stephens on May 30th, 2007 Shivam Vij comments on the latest caste based violence in Rajasthan by quoting B.R. Ambedkar: The literature of the [...] [...] by Jack Stephens on May 30th, 2007 Shivam Vij comments on the latest caste based violence in Rajasthan by quoting B.R. Ambedkar: The literature of the [...]

]]> By: It does not stop at 49.5 percent http://shivamvij.com/2007/05/31/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan/#comment-1910 It does not stop at 49.5 percent Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.shivamvij.com/2007/05/the-annihilation-of-caste-and-the-violence-in-rajasthan.html#comment-1910 <!--%kramer-pre%-->but at the same time blood-thirsty and revengeful. "While the Gujjars are also a Kshatriya class, they are outnumbered 2-1 by the Meenas. I will bet on the Meenas. If you are curious to know why all this chaos is happening, you might want to ask Shivam Vij. [ed. incorrectly referred to him as a Jat, he is actually a Khatri] He might be able to throw some light on this matter. It sure looks like Jats are encroaching into the OBC quotas enough that Gujjars have a reason to be pissed:<!--%kramer-post%--> but at the same time blood-thirsty and revengeful. “While the Gujjars are also a Kshatriya class, they are outnumbered 2-1 by the Meenas. I will bet on the Meenas. If you are curious to know why all this chaos is happening, you might want to ask Shivam Vij. [ed. incorrectly referred to him as a Jat, he is actually a Khatri] He might be able to throw some light on this matter. It sure looks like Jats are encroaching into the OBC quotas enough that Gujjars have a reason to be pissed:

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